#54 Building a Passionate Brand in a Taboo Industry with Emily Cummins-Woods
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Claire: [00:00:00] So the thing is. Unfortunately, In service space, we have to build and give so much value. Before we can even take a dollar. And so recognizing that it's a slow growth, but it's a transformative growth then have it all in 1 space and share that out.
Claire: Welcome to the small town entrepreneur podcast. Another week with your host, Claire Bouvier. We're just going to get right to it. We're talking sex, sex, sex today. [00:01:00] Emily, are you excited?
Emily: I'm so excited.
Claire: And let's be honest. We're, not just talking about sex. We're going to talk about building a brand and we're actually going to have some fun today.
Claire: Emily is in her first. Couple of years of her business but she has 20 years of experience. So I want you first to meet our wonderful, amazing Emily West Cummings Woods is a sexuality, intimacy, and relationship coach with over 20 years. So let's keep that in mind. All that experience, 20 years in the social services and a passion for coaching women and gender diverse clients to live their most satisfying and happiest life.
Claire: and pleasurable lives. She's a registered social worker with additional training by Somatica Institute and will be a certified sexologist in September. Exciting. Yes. But let's also mention that Emily is a writer, a dancer, a mother. And currently taking on the role of entrepreneur, which [00:02:00] is very exciting.
Claire: Emily has some questions today to ask about as she's moving through, like any business, including you, including me, we always hit these different obstacles in our business depending on where we are. And before we dive in for the questions that Emily has today, I think it's really important important for us to look at Emily's coaching business.
Claire: Emily, you're going to talk about the biggest wins that you have seen. That's something that's been really positive that, you know, that you're doing the work that you've been called to do, you're excited about it. Can you just. First share the wins and what those wins look like before we dive in and figuring out where we can troubleshoot the other things.
Emily: Okay, well, the biggest win of all is the client's progress. Like, I just am flying after sessions where people have really big breakthroughs, big aha moments, where they tell me things they've never told anyone before, and it's such a release for them to be able to share, to unshame. [00:03:00] So, for me, the client work is the big win, like, just seeing the change in people and the relief and progress.
Emily: But like that, that wouldn't be possible if I didn't have clients in the first place. So, you know, like for me, creating that space for people is the most important thing. So how do I let people know that space exists?
Claire: You know what? And I think that is a beautiful big win to just address because as you will have the chance in the show notes, you can follow and check out all the amazing work that Emily's done and continues to do.
And this is the thing, this is a great problem. You know, the work you do, the transformation you're giving your clients, but what happens with a lot of business owners that they either are so worried or put a lot of pressure on, you know, getting more people into the funnel, into their pipeline.
Claire: Keeping it going, but also they need to manage their existing clients and really put that pressure and based on what you are talking about, you spend a lot of [00:04:00] time building this client and nurturing these existing clients and building these transformations, but what are some of the obstacles and challenges that you are starting to notice?
Claire: And this is in your first year of business. So it takes time.
Emily: Totally. Well, the things that are working is that I had time and space to really create a proper office here. That I have a big network of people that I already know in Kingston, which is really helpful and beyond. I sort of have, I'm older.
Emily: I have more experience. So I feel like I'm a bit more gutsy maybe to go out and say, Hey, you should have me as part of your panel. You should take me on as a workshop. And that is working. And I have a psychology today listing. I have a good website. Good. Good marketing materials. So all of that's happening.
Emily: And I think the challenge is that there's this huge Stigma this kind of it's controversial the topic and people either don't prioritize it because it feels like oh the least important thing on Their big to [00:05:00] do list like we all know, you know, like as a mother, you know Getting diapers is more important than like, am I happy in my relationship?
Emily: Well, the
Claire: sense of urgency is always there for something. Yeah,
Emily: that's right. And maybe in moments it's like, oh, I should really do something about that. And then it's like, oh, well, that's not, and then that's, you know, the practical side of it. But then there's this whole sort of shame and stigma.
Emily: Either I should know what I'm doing, because we have all this porn we can watch and learn how to, which is a terrible source of sex education really, or inaccurate anyway.
Emily: I should either be a porn star and love it and be amazing at it, because there's enough articles in Cosmo or whatever, or I don't really want to, or I have all this shame or I have all these blockages, or I really just don't want to have the idea that we have in society, what my sex life should look like, all these barriers for people.
Emily: So I feel like even if you're like, yeah, that's a great idea. Everyone's like, Oh, that's, I need it. I know someone that needs it. But the hurdle between, I know I need it [00:06:00] to, I'm going to pay
Claire: for it. Yeah.
Emily: Yes. Is big.
Claire: Yes. and it's so interesting that you bring this up because there's a couple things and, Because I work mostly with businesses in the service space this is very common because like you said, the deck isn't breaking. They don't need a carpenter come in and fix it. And it's falling apart, which is hilarious because that was our, my situation last week, you know, so we're in a world of, there's so much urgency of the things like are actually, you know, interface and it has to be done right away.
Claire: And then there's things that are tucked behind, you know, whether it's, health or, you know, like relationships or coaches or therapy, all these things. It's like, But what we would forget is that all these sense of urgency is the front end of all these problems. If we only address these really big things that are in the shadows, that everything else will be easier to do.
Claire: and I can speak from that after not 10 years of therapy [00:07:00] and recognizing that it. What was really happening. I had to deal with all the big behind the shadow things so that the everyday things become a little less burdensome. So that's speaking from a personal place. So I really appreciate the work that people like you do to really create these big transformations for people.
Claire: So that's the first thing is that, you know, that this important.
Emily: That's very wise of you to say that because, you know, people come in thinking maybe they need some sort of sex fix, but really, it's so much deeper than that. Like, do they even love themselves, their body? Can they be in the present moment?
Emily: And then when they get in touch with that, everything else does trickle down to, like, work and everything else is, you know, is impacted.
Claire: And, it's hard to see that sense of urgency. And so, you know, if we think from a marketing perspective and where we want to get those, like the obstacles, like we want more people to understand the work you do and the transformative power of, like you said, it's, it's so much deeper than, you know, sex.
Claire: it's all these other things. [00:08:00] And those things, when they become tackled and addressed, they impact the everyday urgent moments in your life and how you deal with sense of, you know, impatience or, you know, just like being in the moment and all those things are, are really impacted. And so I think the first thing is recognizing right now, more than ever, we live in a world in the marketing world and everything that's online.
Claire: It is like, I say, it's like someone jumping out of the bushes every five seconds at you online, like the world of reels and shorts and stuff is like, boom here and this and that. Well, there's been so much research. And studies that show that people are highly entertained, but the digestion of that content is actually very little, and the memory is even less.
Claire: And so what happens is that we're feeling the pressure to keep jumping on this bandwagon of creating these short videos. You [00:09:00] know,. And yes, in certain businesses, fine.
Claire: But I think in the service space, when we have an individual that is trying to get people to trust, there is no way you can get someone to trust you by doing these short form marketing tactics. And. They're good for reminding people you exist and you're there, but something I've come to learn is that owning a space that allows you to go deep into that topic.
Claire: And so there's been a lot of research in the podcast and the YouTube world for example, is that you have at least 10, 15 minutes that the person that is sitting down and taking the time. They're not. They're not. Charging, they're not giving your wallet, but they're giving your time.
Claire: And those are the two things that people are trying to compete with more than anything is time and money. Right? So you're not asking for your money, but you're asking for their time. Once they give time and time again, and time again, eventually they're [00:10:00] ready to come in and give money. And I see this all the time because I see it for myself.
Claire: And when I talk to other people, we buy into these podcast worlds and like the intimacy, for example, of a podcast, no, we're not reaching millions of people I remember my first episode, I had two listeners and I was pumped. I was like, someone sat and listened for two people listened for 45 minutes.
Claire: And. I can tell you those two sit on every single week and it keeps growing. And so that intimacy is built that transformation. We don't know for you, the sales cycle and when that's going to happen, but it will happen because they've bought into you. So whether it's a long form of. If you love to write and people can subscribe to you on Substack or Medium or something where they can just be a bystander and they're struggling and it can be two in the morning, they're laying in bed, they can't sleep and they stumble on your work and they keep following it.
Claire: And this is the patterns is that you don't know at one [00:11:00] point, it's just gonna be like, okay, I'm ready. I, I trust her because I, I've gotten to know so much about Emily and the work she does and I'm seeing other things. So that's the first thing is really creating something that you own a space that you can get deep into the topics and you're not struggling to post these one off things because really there's a place for it to, you know, if you're running an event and you want people to, Hey, we're doing this.
Claire: It's a reminder, but I really firmly believe. And see and the statistics and the studies show that people want for really big topics like this and something they're afraid of, or there's fear on them that you go deep with them and show them your vulnerabilities, show the vulnerabilities of what you do.
Claire: And then over time, you will start to see that and it becomes easier when you have that 1 space. And. The other thing is, meeting people where they're at. So if you know that there's so much shame and people are putting this on the back burner and, you [00:12:00] know, obviously getting to the dentist and all these appointments that are sense of urgency and this, you keep, you know, we're like, Oh, one day off time.
Claire: And I talked to a lot of people about this, whether it's, you know, finding a doctor for a special reason or this, they're like, you know, I'm not dying. So, you know, it can't be that important. Right. And so that's where you want to change the conversation and meet them where they're at.
Claire: And so something I've started to do, and it's a fancy term. It's called sentiment analysis. It's just understanding where your clients are. So I'm sure there's other Emily's in the world. But they're not you, you have, you possess your own, sexuality coaches, relationship coaches, and they've been in the business for a long time. They have testimonials and they have pages of people talking and on all these different, I call these the colloquial. You know, places of chatter and you can go to these places [00:13:00] and what I do, whether you formalize it and you actually in a technical word, pull an API and grab all the sentiments, or you just go through and you start noticing the language, how people are talking about this, what their fears are.
Claire: So you flip the script and when you're writing out to them, you're saying. Do you feel this way ever? Sometimes we, we know this stuff so well, and you're probably like, you know, why, why isn't this converting? And it's sometimes because we're not meeting our customers, our patients, our clients, our patrons.
Claire: We're not meeting them. Where they're at, and so I think the best way is just to go dive deep into these Facebook groups. Go look at these reddit pages, go to these people that look up into the space and start scanning through the conversations and you'll start to see certain trigger words and buzzwords and these ways that people are explaining things and you can just flip the script and start speaking to them in that space in that way that they feel safe. So that would be [00:14:00] part of, you know, using that language when you're doing your long form messaging. So the thing is. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen overnight In service space, we have to build and give so much value. Before we can even take a dollar. And so recognizing that it's a slow growth, but it's a transformative growth.
Claire: So it's almost recognizing that. You know, the sweet spot I hear all the time. If we show up, we're consistent.
Claire: Like regularly consistency will always win because you're offering something your product is good. Your services are good. And so when you keep sharing, and that's why that visibility piece is like pairing it with if you're in a local community showing up. In person to these events and having something special to give to people, not just another business card, but I think like understanding who your audience is and where they're [00:15:00] at and having that sentiment analysis and looking at it's going to really, really help and increase the visibility more and more over time.
Claire: And it just compounds.
Claire: And you, you mentioned that you say that please share this with someone that you think would benefit this compound interest. It works. You just keep showing up. People know you're there. And like what we're doing here today, having these conversations because someone else listening to this might be like, I'm a coach too, or I'm in the space of service recognizing.
Claire: Yeah, like, it took me a long time to figure that out. But after so many years, you're like, okay, this is, it's better to go slow in the service space than trying to win everyone over immediately because you don't have the capacity. None of us have that capacity because it's such a big topic and transformation.
Emily: I think that's been the hardest part is pacing. You know, it's like people say you can burn out with the intensity of the upfront marketing and then others say, just be yourself and follow the things that make you [00:16:00] happy and that you enjoy doing. So I love writing. So I've been focusing on the blog and that sort of thing.
Emily: But you know, I also want to keep in mind the things that really work.
The blog is fantastic. But there was someone, they tested, someone reading a blog in video form versus not, they had more viewers because people just wanted to know the information, they wanted to hear the, how the person read it, it's like getting read a story.
Claire: So, if I were you, if you're already like writing, why not with for your blog if you do your blog at the end of it, you sit in front of the camera and you read it out how you're, how you would be saying it in a therapy session and have that in the bottom of your blog.
Claire: And so I would say is then have it all in 1 space and share that out. Because it's really interesting. You'll start to see the segmentation when people are going, you'll see, okay, this many people are, are naturally watching the video and this many people are, are reading it and you'll see the changes and you can [00:17:00] start having that data is crucial because then you can start catering more and segmenting more and more and giving a more personalized experience for your, for your readers, for your followers.
Claire: And the more personalized you make it, the more they feel connected to you and the closer to converting a paid client will happen. Yeah. Makes sense.
Claire: [00:18:00] Yeah now , you had a question around your brand.
Emily: Well I thought a lot about who my target clients were and sort of what it is I wanted to do. And I knew that by actually doing it, that's when it would really refine for me.
Emily: I knew upfront, there were certain things I definitely wanted to do in certain, like I knew I wanted to work with women mostly and gender diverse folks. That was clear. My mission was clear. But in terms of the application, I'm realizing that, there are some folks that their brand is more like sex tips or like videos on how to, or much more sort of mechanics, the mechanics of it.
Emily: And I'm realizing the thing that I want to do with people is really get them connected with [00:19:00] themselves, learn how to connect with others, attune, the body shame, the, all those. Other elements I'm feeling more called to. And I think that those are what create hot sex in the end, really. That the mechanics or details that matter, they don't not matter, but they only matter if the rest is working.
Claire: Well, and that's, I think then that's where the messaging, right? If, if you recognize that the messaging is around self love and. You know, relationship building, starting from a place where it's not as scary to someone to sign up and to be a part of that. Maybe it's just the way that the messaging comes across and asking the people that you're close to and saying, you know, what are you more likely to pay for?
Claire: If it was and that. You know, you got to figure out, and then I know you know this, but for all of us, we have to figure out what the business we're in. Right. So, you know, we look at someone, I was talking to someone who's a bartender and he's [00:20:00] like, I'm in the industry of serving people and serving yes, booze.
Claire: But like, he's like, I want to have conversations that I get to share the things I do outside of bartending and bring it back. And I love to listen. And that's, that's why I show up that's what drives me. And so. When we think about, you know, what people are naturally drawn to, and like, the things, the wins that you have had, you know, how does that follow?
Claire: What are the conversations that you're having that lead someone to ask more? Because maybe the end goal that isn't publicly publicly. Yeah. Branded, you know, is, you know, the pieces of the mechanical stuff that we're talking about with sexuality, but it's, you talk a lot about what's happening before and the foundation of growth and how we can set ourselves up for these places of success, just like anything, right?
Claire: Like, I think about, Including myself for a long time, like selling those really uncomfortable until I started realizing [00:21:00] that selling didn't become uncomfortable. Once I figured out why I was selling and the why and and coming from a different place. And I think sometimes we just have to relook at anything.
Claire: Like, what is the messaging and the wording that's going to get people to ask questions and start that transformation? Because. Hmm. We don't know where it's going to go. And also something I think frustrates me when I look at people talking about brands is that everyone gets so fixated on, you know, the color palette or this logo and they, they think of it such as a visual thing and the t shirts and all this, what really comes down to the conversion is.
Claire: The brand is all about the touch points of how you make them feel. So if they do see your website and there's a soothing song and, you know, you've nailed that and they just feel very, you know, like I'm looking at your Your office. I wouldn't call it an [00:22:00] office. It looks like very cozy nook. I wouldn't curl up on that couch and talk to you about life.
Claire: Like, you know, so, you know, that's part of the brand. The brand is how you make people feel the, the tone of your voice when you Ask them a question, how they feel and that they have the space to share how they feel. That's your brand. It's about making how people make feel. And so when we talk about all these other assets of a brand and we look at, you know, the messaging and the website and the social media, all those things are just the touch points.
Claire: But ultimately it's when I do this, when I say this, when I put this out in the world, how is it received? How do I make someone feel? And that really is what a brand is going to be so powerful if someone's like, I feel this way every time I talk to Emily, they're not concerned that, you know, you didn't [00:23:00] wear makeup for a session.
Claire: I'm just making something up, you know, like, they're not worried that your website is not responsive for mobile, you know, they, I'm making this up. By the way, this is hypotheticals, but my website's
Emily: doing okay. So far.
Claire: Yeah. I just mean that those are extras, you know, those are the, the extras. And sometimes it gets to a point where that could become something that's really important to start focusing on.
Claire: But I think when you're first growing and when you're building, It's to really focus on those conversations, whether they're online, whether they're going the extra mile, someone makes a comment about something and you're like, Hey, check your DMS and you sent them an article that really resonated with what they were saying.
Claire: And it's just taking that time, which that's why it's really hard there. There's a level of patience that is really needed in the service space because. It does take time, but once you're, if you're seeing these transformations in your clients and they're speaking, [00:24:00] it's really good to capture that. And, you know, in the space of therapy.
Claire: It's really hard to like, hey, could you publicly write a testimonial? No, but there's ways of doing it that you can just say for privacy reasons. These are the testimonials of my patients that will are happy to share these things. And that's a way for people to understand being like, okay, these are real people.
Claire: This was how they came in. This is what they started with Emily. And after over these sessions in this chapter, I feel this way and that's what's going to convert people is that they're like, okay, maybe, you know, if I can see myself in that person, I'm more likely to go there and to talk to Emily. And so I think it's as much as in your brand is just showing those transformations to just show as many case studies or as many.
Claire: Scenarios, the more scenarios and you're targeting that audience and what you see in that with your research is noticing these common struggles. And when we [00:25:00] go back to what we were talking about, looking at sentiment analysis, how do people talk about themselves and the people that your ideal client, your ideal individual that that needs the help, but they keep telling themselves it's not urgent.
Claire: So how do you make that. Urgent for them and flipping it being like, imagine a world where you feel this, then all these other small little urgent things that happen in your day. They become way less burdensome because you've lifted the major weight that's carrying you every day. And I speak from someone that has had all the therapy and I recognize like if I didn't do that work, I don't know where I would be today.
Claire: I can fully say that I, I, for, for those listening, I actually aired my my last therapy session before my therapist retired everyone, I forgot to mention everyone's like, why did you quit? I'm like, he retired. He was. Like, he put in his like 50 years, so on the hunt eventually for someone new, maybe [00:26:00] Emily. But I think it's really important that when we think about brand, especially our early days, especially when we're focusing on, we provide services that we have to play the long game. It's the organic. moments that are going to be transformational. It's going to be the person that refers you to someone else being like, Emily changed my life.
Claire: I had another conversation with. A naturopathic doctor, she's like, I'm not good at sales. She's like what I, the transformations that I, I do for my clients are, they're telling everyone they're my salespeople and I am so in there, they are in so much demand that she's like, so that will take time.
Claire: And this is like years, you know, three, four, five, six years into the business. So I think there's that level of when you're building a brand to not rush it. To really let it, you know, you have to be intentional and that means putting in the work and [00:27:00] showing up every week on the blog with. You know, your face reading the script, if it has to, you know, if that, if that helps and pulling the audio and putting it on and having all those different ways so people can digest your information.
Claire: I know so many people that don't read and they much prefer video and I'm like, you're crazy. Like, that's the last thing I want at the end of the day when I do that stuff. I want to quietly read in my head. And so sometimes we just have to meet them where they're at. Hold your audience. If you were to digest this information, and so when we look at brand, I always say, just ask yourself, when you put something out into the world, even if it's like a little thumbs up on a Facebook post, or you're writing a long form blog, how is this?
Claire: Making that person feel, how is that? Because ultimately that is the brand and that is your brand. So yeah, I'm [00:28:00] excited to see the seeded growth. Okay. What's one, one more question that we can look at and, and dive into.
Emily: Well, with the no like in trust, I have to decide on the return on investment for. The amount of work it takes to kind of show up at conferences or apply to be speaker at, you know, these kind of activities that have forms and a lot of emailing back and forth. And if you had any thoughts on for the service industry, whether that seems to be really effective.
Claire: So I always ask myself, what is the purpose of me going to that conference? So I have gone to conferences that I've been asked to speak and I have, after, you know, all the, Hotels and food and everything's been paid and this and that and my time, I have decided intentionally that if no one ever buys for me after this what was the purpose?
Claire: Like, what is the goal?
Claire: So, the 1st thing is be [00:29:00] really intentional what you're going to. The 2nd thing is, if you are spending the time and money, and this is to convert the audience into getting them at the very least into your pipeline. So, they buy your entry level. Ebook that just gets them into the world of Emily and it's an entry 40 dollars, 30, 40 dollars, right?
Claire: That's a really powerful way. And, but you have to ask yourself, is that audience? My audience. Are they. Potentially purchasing customers. So I always think about it like this who's sitting in the chairs. Do they have the money to pay? Are they willing to invest in that?
Claire: And so the intention is to practice your public speaking to understand your audience or what people's pain points are and to get the language and you record it and you listen back and you listen to the questions. That's a research piece, but if it's a conversion of a sale, Okay. That's not your audience because they're not going to pay.
Claire: Like in the end, what do I want to [00:30:00] see out of this? And if it just doesn't make sense, then that's okay.
Emily: Well, I can give you an example. I did a workshop in Toronto and it was like, basically two days out of my life for a two hour workshop just getting there, getting organized, getting home you know, and the workshop was well attended and it was and I got a client out of it and an interview for a book and so I feel like it was worth it but it didn't, it didn't cover two days worth of, you know, work in that period of time.
Emily: Do you know what I mean? So it's like, do I do more of those? Do I let them go? So
Claire: it was really fun
Emily: though. It was good practice for the workshop as well.
Claire: Exactly. And I think you'll, win the next. Opportunity does come into your lap. Like, so let's think about it like this. I always think, okay, if you've got an interview for a book and then this takes you down the path, writing your own book and churning it, that could just be like, so where that you think back, it was just a two day thing.
Claire: So I think it's about, yes, those things are important, you know, space them out accordingly that they, [00:31:00] you can make that fun. How do you use your time? Be intentional. And sometimes I have to sit back and be like, okay, I failed. So at the end of the day is with our work is, the busiest moms are the most effective business women, because it's like you're living off.
Claire: Nap schedules and pick up kids from there and cooking and this and that. And so not to be totally traditional essence, but that's what you have to be
Emily: efficient. You have to be efficient.
Claire: And, you know, but right now just focus on the high impact, be intentional and allow the growth to naturally do that through the blog, through the video, through the podcast form. Cause you have a very soothing voice. I want to listen to it. So yes, I can read it, but this would be something that I'm driving home and I'm tuning to Emily every week.
Claire: It'd be awesome.
Emily: Wow. I don't have a podcast, but maybe I should.
Claire: I mean, [00:32:00] you're writing, turn that writing into a podcast episode. I'm all about doubling down, batching, you know, this episode turns into a YouTube video, turns into reels, turns into articles. You have one. Place where it's a big, amazing message and then you spit it out to tease out.
Claire: So you've got people coming in, but fine, like own that 1 space and it will grow. We are always chasing too many channels and too many places. And I think this year, that's something I've, you know, it's the theme that I'm looking into the places that where I really look up to my mentors.
Claire: It's about owning one space really well.
Emily: That's a great advice. Thank you, Claire.
Claire: You're awesome. I do like to learn
Emily: from you actually. So.
Claire: All right, Emily, will you come back on in six months?
Emily: I would be delighted.
Claire: And I want to hear, we're gonna do a like, a playback, these things, these little snippets will come back and then we'll [00:33:00] flip it and I'm gonna ask you questions.
Emily: Ooh, look forward to
Claire: it. Let's do this. This will be fun. I want to hear from our listeners. I want to hear from you. I want to know, are you a service based industry?
Claire: Are you providing some service? What are the things that work for you? There's so many things we could have talked about, but if help Emily out, help myself out. We want to hear from you. What works in the service industry and how do you grow naturally and organically without being that pushy salesy.
Claire: Aggressive, because it, doesn't align with the work that you're doing, Emily. So, thank you so much for just being so open and sharing your questions. I think it's powerful that we can do this together.
Emily: Ah, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Claire.
Claire: You're so welcome. Thank you. Bye.
[00:34:00]
