Steve Kaczynski
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Steve: [00:00:00] I see this and I can see clearly how this is going to change the way we do things. so I made that decision at that point. I'm going to learn everything I can about this. And I've, developed a relatively successful career. career. And I decided, you know what? I'm going to learn everything I can about this and see where it goes. Nine months later, I co authored that first Harvard Business Review article about NFTs. Three months after that, I quit my job to go full time, and so far I haven't gone back. I've, jumped out of the plane and the parachute came out, at least so far.
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[00:01:00]
Claire: All right. We have Steve. Steve, You are the co author of the token of everything. Are we NFT bark? Are we Steve bark? What are we calling you today on the pod?
Steve: We'll go with Steve Kaczynski. That's actually my birth name. And yes Author of the Everything Token co authored the first Harvard Business Review article about NFTs, worked with Starbucks on Starbucks Odyssey as the community lead for their NFT program, working with a brand called Doodles, which is Native Web 3 brand, on some consulting there, and, you know, just host a show, and really, I just want to get these ideas out there so people understand what this tech is.
And I'm
Claire: so excited, I don't know if you can tell, but I know the [00:02:00] listeners know that this is my jam. I will never pretend, but I am a total nerd and every moment, like you, always learning about how this is changing our world. And that's what your book is about. And huge congratulations. It's one thing to talk about writing a book.
You know, a lot of people talk the talk, but you are living proof. You are writing on a topic that is also huge. We're entering another, well, we're in another bull run and it's, it's, it's crazy what's happening in the world. And you not only wrote on a book that's so topical, so relevant, going to change our world, but you executed and it's out in the world.
Not only that, but it's fantastic. I was just telling you before this. I was in Austin, Texas, and you made me look really cool. I was at a web three meetup for women and I threw out the book there. I said, Hey, no big deal getting Steve on the pod.
So I am so grateful you're here so [00:03:00] Steve, let's imagine our listener has never opened up Twitter and they are not familiar with web three. And they haven't heard of the term Web3. What would you tell them? How would you explain Web3?
Steve: So I'll go a couple of places with this one. I think, you know, people are maybe not familiar with the terms, but think of it this way. The internet has existed in three phases. Web 1 was what we call read, where you would be able to go on and you would be able to sort of read what people wrote. In fact, in the mid 90s, when I was in middle school, I was coding web pages so that people could read them, because I thought it was cool that I could make a website when I was in 7th and 8th grade and somebody in Paris, France could read the same thing I coded and do existence.
That was read, right? Like you could read the news and interact, but really like maybe you could start to buy things in e commerce. Phase two of the internet was right. Think of that as the social web. So Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, you're able to write, interact, have two way interaction like you never would before, but you know, as the [00:04:00] phrase goes, if you're not paying for the product, oftentimes you are the product.
And as we know. In web one, you were the consumer and bought stuff in web two, you were the product because they took your information and sold it. Web three, you are part of the brand. And by that I mean you own so it's read, write and own. In fact, there's a tremendous book by a guy named Chris Dixon, who actually wrote a nice quote for our book called Read, write, own which kind of explains this extremely well.
So the idea is like back when you could, you know, with the early internet into the social web and now into ownership where you can actually have ownership of the internet. And if you want, I could get into what that means actually more implicitly with some really good analogies that we've really worked out with our editor for this book, who was non crypto native.
So she was able to make sure everything kind of
Claire: hit. I love that. So let's, let's do that right now so that we really set a strong, because it's one thing you're like, okay, read, write own well, hopefully by the end of this episode, people are like, okay, well, I'm ready to be part of the ownership phase of this world.
What does that look [00:05:00] like? Give us an analogy so that we can start. Getting our audience excited for participating in this.
Steve: Yeah, well, like, the nerdy part up front is you can't have markets without property rights. And that sounds really jargony, but it's the same idea that if I wanted to sell you my house, I have to prove through the deed of registry that I own my house to sell it to you, right?
And the analogy I like to use, my friend Adam Hollander, I call it the Hollander explanation. It is my favorite explanation of what Web 3 is. Which is, imagine you go to a museum and you see a beautiful painting on the wall. You can take a picture of that painting, but the picture on your phone is not worth anything.
You could buy a print in the gift shop, but that print's not worth anything either. The reason the one on the wall is worth so much money is because the museum owns it, it's the original, and they can prove both of those things. And up until recently, it was nearly impossible to prove the ownership of digital items.
Now, this may not seem like a big deal, but because they're digital items, I'm sure we'll get into many use cases. [00:06:00] You can build on top of them, right? It's programmable software. It's not just I own this picture because I've had people say, well, I could right click and save a picture and then I have a two, right?
And my answer to that is a couple fold. Number one, you could take a picture of somebody's Ferrari, but you don't own and drive that Ferrari, right? Similarly, you know, I could make my profile picture on Twitter or Instagram or anywhere else, Shaquille O'Neal, but that doesn't mean they're going to put me in the Basketball Hall of Fame or give me all his endorsement checks from all the commercials he does, right?
That's just not how it works. So you can right click and save pictures from the internet, but the actual provable ownership of that, which is more than just showing you on the picture, which is defined by something called the blockchain, which is just a fancy registry, just like your registry of deeds or anything else.
Well, that means that you can program. All sorts of fun businesses around it. And you know, the reason why we called the book, the everything token is, you know, when we started thinking about the businesses and industries that can potentially disrupt, we kind of started saying, well, it's like medical records, it's ticketing, it's music, it's entertainment.
It's kind of [00:07:00] everything. So we can certainly get into those to make them even more crystallized. But I think that analogy helps explain, you can now own things digitally. And that has, that's, that is the ability to change markets across the globe. And I,
Claire: I really like what you said there, and I love your friend, shout out to Holl the Hollinger.
Steve: Adam Hollander. Yeah.
Claire: I love that because I think that's the thing we get really caught up in the jargon and the, you know, the words like blockchain and stuff. But when it comes down to something that we know, like buying a house looking at art, I think it makes it really. It really relates to us, especially as we're moving into a whole new generation that, I mean, we were at, we had this conversation, my one and a half year old, I don't, I can't say that I sit and teach him, but it's wild his interactivity on a device already and you're like, how, and the world that's.
We're going to be experiencing is going to be very a part of this. Now, your background is in marketing. You've [00:08:00] done a lot of you know, and this is a natural progression. What was the moment that you were like, this is our future?
Steve: Yeah. You know, it's funny. I have been early. I mentioned web one, web two, web three.
I have been early to every one of those stages. And in each one, I had people tell me it was ridiculous, and I didn't do anything about it. So, in Web 1, I had teachers and adults say, This is an awesome hobby, we love that you're into tech, but, What's the purpose of these websites? When I was early to Facebook, and I connected with friends and thought, This is pretty cool, I'm meeting people that, I'm seeing people that I haven't seen since middle school, When I was making those websites, or adding me as friends.
Or when on Twitter, you know, people who are my age can remember a plane landed on the Hudson river in the United States at one point. And when that happened, the first reports and pictures came from Twitter. And I was like, Oh, this is a real time news update to connect with people. And then I was early to Ethereum.
In fact, my poor team, when I was at an insurance company in a leadership position, When I was there, I would [00:09:00] whiteboard why I thought Ethereum was cool because of smart contracts in 2018, and again, people said crypto's a big scam, this isn't particularly interesting, and I believed them, and when the market went down, I didn't follow it.
So, come 2021, I started getting into this world and found these sort of NFTs, and when I looked up what it was, I was like, wait a minute. This is a thing through the smart contracts built on the thing, you know, the cryptocurrency that I got into in 2018 built on the thing, the internet that I was obsessed with in the mid nineties.
And I see this and I can see clearly how this is going to change the way we do things. And so I made that decision at that point. I'm going to learn everything I can about this. And I've, you know, developed a relatively successful career. I had leaders, I was leading, you know, internal communications at a Fortune 500 company when we sent, you know, 40, 000 people home for COVID, right?
Like, so I, I, I built up into a successful PR and marketing career. And I decided, you know what? I'm going to learn everything I can about this and see where it goes. Nine months later, I co authored that first Harvard Business Review article [00:10:00] about NFTs. Three months after that, I quit my job to go full time, and so far I haven't gone back.
I've, you know, jumped out of the plane and the parachute came out, at least so far.
Claire: It's crazy because we talk about early adopters. What's the word before the early adopter? You're the early, early adopter. And how many of your friends are hitting you up now saying, Oh, if only I had listened
Steve: to you. Oh, my God.
That is like the conversation where. I remember, you know, when I was getting into NFTs and people are like, I don't get it. It's silly. I don't get it. And then as time went on, it went from, I don't get it to how do I learn more about this thing, which has been really nice. Like telling your friends and family that you're working in this new tech industry is really, really hard.
And you know, it's like, you feel like you see this thing that nobody else can see. And I saw it so unclear enough to spend the last two years writing a book. And so. You know, the fact that that happened and then going through that with my friends and family, it's been actually really cool to come out the other [00:11:00] side.
You know, a couple of years ago when my, before my dad passed away, he made a comment to me where he said, look, I don't understand, you know, anything about what you do, but I'm proud of you because you're actually chasing your dream and trying to make it happen. And that meant a lot because it was that moment where he was like, I can't explain what you do at all, but I do understand that it's important to you.
And I understand that you're kind of onto something here. So so far so good.
Claire: That is, what better gift could he have given you, right? Yeah, that's really special. And because of that, Steve, and this is where I find people like you to be very interesting. Because some, people like you don't always get the credit And when I say don't get the credit, you do get the credit, but it's way down the road, and people are like, Oh, right, yeah, like, I knew you were on to that.
Would you say, like, it's interesting, I meet a lot of people, and some people are like, How did you, like, how did you know that, you know? You talk to other people, like, what was the, the pieces that came together? Can you speak to [00:12:00] those, all these early phases, these, it's patterns and behaviors of humans, right?
It's psychology, so you're recognizing demands and needs. Was there anything over the each iteration, you know, the read, write, own, the web 1, 2, 3? Was there anything that always stood out to you that you noticed that were ready for a new transition? In, in most, in, even in a local situation or something more
Steve: global. You know, it's funny in each instance, I always find myself having like an aha moment. And it's like, I can remember clearly. Like I can remember the cackle of the internet when I collect, connected. Cause it went through the phone line in the mid nineties and all those things. And I remember like that moment, like I said, where I was like.
Coding a website and like could send it to my friends, but not only that, like people all over the world and in different places. And at the time people who had maybe moved away from my school who I could tell who could get on the internet in their computer lab [00:13:00] in their school if they didn't have a computer at home or computer.
You know, there's, there's a Nate Bargettsy skit where Nate Bargettsy, one of my favorite comedians was like, you know, people were like, well, what about your computer? He's like, well, when you're a kid, when I was a kid, cause he's around my age, it's like, you have a computer. What are you a gazillionaire? And it was like.
You know, so I remember like the moment of like people seeing it elsewhere thing being this quick moment for me and being like, okay, there's something here similarly, like my friend adding me on Facebook from middle school or the plane landing on the Hudson River. And I think to me. There's no secret anecdote.
I think everybody has these in their life, right? Like, I think certain people can spot trends in business that I could never stop spot, right? And everywhere I've worked, you know, when I worked at Nestle, right? Like Nestle USA, and we're working on DiGiorno, Hot Pockets, Lean Cuisine, all these big brands.
There are people who are in the sort of distribution and supply chain who could see things coming down. I would never go because they were just trained to see the trend. And I think for me, I'm just built in to be a nerd who loves tech and video games. It is just my DNA. And as a result, I'll see something and I'll say I'm [00:14:00] on to something.
And the other thing is like, I think I have this mindset where I have this desire, this intellectual curiosity to learn. Right. And I think that like, for whatever reason, the way I'm wired is. I want to try things and look, some things are going to be like, I was on daily photo, which people don't know what that is.
It predated Instagram, it didn't work, but then I was also on Instagram early. I was one of the first people to get to Pinterest, right? I had to get an invite code that got me a special invite, right? And some of these work out to things, but Friendster and MySpace aren't still here, but Facebook and, you know, AOL is gone, but Facebook is here.
And I think I've always just been an early adopter who wants to try the new thing. And I think because of that, I'm able to be the ultimate beta tester and spot what's good, what's not, and figure it out from there.
Claire: And I think that's what it is. And, and, you know, something else, you're a risk taker too.
Like you, you recognize there's opportunity, like you said, there's opportunity for things just to kind of fizzle and go on, but there's always the next thing. [00:15:00] Help me out here, but I would say there are a lot of people fearful of web three or this idea. They don't even maybe know it's web three, but this whole NFT, this whole movement of decentralization that we talk about, in your opinion, what would you say?
Why are, why do you think people are hesitant to embrace it? And on the flip side, why is it inevitable?
Steve: Okay, so this is a great question, and it actually, people have short memories. So, I think people forget that I'm one of those people! Well, and truthfully, like, I think people forget, like, you can go back and find videos from the nineties of people going to like, it's a great, you can Google this video.
You talk about taking action, Google the video about credit cards in the nineties at Burger King. And there is a video of people using credit cards at Burger King and people saying, I would never not use cash. What is this thing? It's slow. It's terrible. There are people who would say, you know, [00:16:00] I'm old enough to know that I used to have to bring a check to a store to pay my credit card bill.
Now we do all of our banking online. Cause you would never do your banking online. Right. And think about what that is. Right. We're talking on a zoom video call this morning. I did a show with one to 2000 people that I do every Monday through Friday that, you know, that, that our listeners all through my phone, 20 years ago, I had a Motorola flip phone.
And so when you think of these stories, you know, or, or like even before that, a Nokia 8, 260, and when you think of these. Stories about like what these are, you know, one of my favorite one to put it all together. There was a McKinsey cell phone setting. You know, so McKinsey is one of the top consulting firms, right?
And AT&T in 1980 said, we want to know how many people are using cell phones in the year 2000 so that we can prepare for it. McKinsey came up with a number and their estimate was 900,000 and they said that based on The weight of the cell phone, the technology that existed at the time. 900, 000? Who would even use such a thing?
I believe the number was closer to 110 million, so they had they were off by [00:17:00] just a smidge, right? That's actually hilarious. Well, and think about that. That's before the iPhone in 2006. So that means that that many people were already using cell phone to the tune of 110 plus million. And when you think about it It makes sense because people look at technology the way it is now.
They're fearful of what's next. They don't see the purpose. I, and again, I would, I would say to anybody, I'm sure your listeners, like you mentioned the, the, the NFT skepticism, I will tell you now kind of due to why they're inevitable. Number one, they are simply just better. And businesses will always use better software solutions for their businesses and can have them advantaging their consumers as well.
Right? Like QR codes were a trend. But then you use them for every ticket you have now. Now, you know, I think NFTs, much like the term MP3, will eventually be dropped. People aren't going to say NFT. You know, you don't, they say MP3, you listen to music. You don't say, let me go to the game and grab my QR code.
You say, let me get my ticket to go to the game or the theater.
Claire: Love [00:18:00] that. Love that. That was like a question I've been dying to ask because I think just that. You know, the way we choose our words can impact even our actions and how it's implied
Steve: when they've been financialized, right? And to be fair, like, Early, you know, there was a.
com boom. Amazon almost went bust, right? Apple had to be bailed out by Microsoft at some point when Bill Gates billed that, you know, bailed out Steve jobs. And this is how the world works sometimes, right? Does that mean that those industries were wrong or incorrect? Does it mean because there was a. com boom, they're over overly financialized?
Not necessarily, but I think that people need to pay attention to that. You need to separate the signal from the noise and even with the digital items, because one of the questions I get commonly from people, particularly around my age is. I don't want a digital thing. I want a physical thing. Why would I want something digital?
And my answer usually is I look around that room, maybe it's a large company, I say, all right, show of hands, how many of your kids play Roblox, Minecraft, or Fortnite? All the hands go up, right? If they have kids. It's like, okay, [00:19:00] well, did they pay for those items? Like, kids care about digital items right now.
And again, when you think about the advancement of technology, I think we have short memories. When I was a kid, and I was, you know, I loved video games. But when you saw an adult playing a video game in the wild, it was either Tetris or Dr. Mario, because if you saw an adult playing a video game in the wild, it was like seeing a unicorn, right?
Claire: Hey, I'm still playing Tetris,
Steve: okay? Which, Tetris is Electric. I, I will say I was the best Tetris player on the TI 85 calculator ever to exist. But like the thing, the thing, the thing that's funny about the video games is though, is like I play Halo with my brother, my friends play Fortnite and Call of Duty.
They're in their forties people in there because we aged into it. Our kids will age into caring about digital collectibles. My daughter has bought physical items specifically because there were digital items that came as a companion in Roblox. And so understanding that and also like. People who own like signed memorabilia, nobody sees it, but if you have that somehow pinned to a [00:20:00] digital item that you can display across your profiles online, well, that's an opportunity right there for you to show the things that you own and flex your identity elsewhere.
So I think there's going to be that digital growth, and I think businesses are well advantaged to think about how it fits into their business purpose and, you know, integrate it as the software and the infrastructure and rails around it advance. And I,
Claire: and I think that's huge. It's, we're growing into it.
It's this natural progression, just like anything. And it's true. We do have short memories. Oh my gosh. You're, this is like so much nostalgia because, and I think Steve, you can relate. We're. I, well, I grew up, this is the whole, the small town entrepreneurs, like I grew up, there was dial up until I went to university.
Like it was like we were really, so I, I know this world of just building forts in the forest most of my life. And then all of a sudden I'm coding an HTML, my first [00:21:00] English lit paper at university. And it just like, you're like, okay, this is awesome. And it's moving fast and we can see things are moving faster and faster.
What are some, like, Web3 examples that we can see today, every day, that people are using?
Steve: Well, let me toss to you, because I think, like, one of the ways to bring value is to toss, like, ways they could work for people, because here's the truth. The truth of the matter is, right now, just like the Internet, it's funny, you could look up and find articles that say, and again, you could Google, Internet passing fad, and you'll find an article that says, Internet is a passing fad as millions give up on it because people thought tech and cost barriers were difficult, right?
Like, you had to have modems, you had to connect to the phone line, all those things.
Claire: Mining is expensive, and yeah, yeah. All of
Steve: those things, so like, when you look at like, what, what Web 3 is doing now, like, right now, like, I mentioned I built 90s, and when I had a code of line off, It meant that the entire website was brick [00:22:00] to code, right?
When I, you know, my sister got a phone call, I got kicked off. I got kicked off live because it was the internet, right? And you can hear their call. And yeah, and every, so, this is how it was. Now, if you and me want to spin up a webpage, we could just grab a square space and do it tonight, right? Or even,
Claire: not even, this is the other thing.
Have you, sorry, we're totally not on the same website. Oh, no, no, no, let's do it. Web 10. I, you say the website you want it to look like, you put in something, it literally builds out you on a, in a website and you don't lift your
Steve: finger. And that's, see, and think about those tools that didn't exist, right, as the early internet was forming.
Well, very similar right now, you have to be pretty close to the rails to use Web3 and NFTs. The reason why actually we wrote this book specifically is because, you know, it's a five and a half hour listen on audible at regular speed. Right. So not that long. And if you've said regular speed, well, it's funny.
I had to really, I mean, someone once described me, it was hilarious. I [00:23:00] was doing an interview and they're like, you are articulate and talk like a machine gun. It's a fun, it's a fun description. But I love that. It's, it's like the reason why we actually wrote the book and this is not me shilling the book.
It's just the truth is like, we know that this technology is coming and I didn't have the advantage of having any tool. Like, there was no Google for me to learn about HTML. And so we want to give a tool where it's like, if you're a small business owner, because we believe this is as important for the Starbucks or the local coffee shop.
Love it, love it, love it, love it. The majority of businesses are small businesses and they should be getting the advantage early on. And so for us, we're like, look, read about it. Understand what this stuff is. And then even if you can't execute it now, once those tools come into play, you're ready to pounce and you can work on your strategy in advance.
So like an example I like to give to people is access pass or ticketing, right? Like, you know, right now you get a ticket. You use it in the game, you throw it away. [00:24:00] NFTs providing digital ownership are a strictly better solution for this, specifically because it helps stop counterfeit, right? Like, you know there's only one, and it goes one person to the next.
But, what's cool about NFTs is they are programmable software. Meaning, if you're a local business, let's say that you are by a stadium, let's say you're by the Toronto Raptors, you know, arena, and you're across the street from it. Well, you want to be the official Toronto Raptors bar. Well, once the technology is there, you could say, If somebody has season tickets, they can come here, prove it with their NFT, you know, which will then just be called a ticket or a season tickets.
And you can get a special area. So suddenly you become that thing, right? If you want to give, you know, extra benefits on top of it as a small business, you're able to do that. Or if the team just says. We want to issue every person who's here the opportunity to get a free t shirt, right? Like, you know, they can do that by knowing everybody was at that game and can get their right sizing and things like that.
Or, the person can sell their ticket to someone who wants that free t shirt. So, building on top of things like that, you know, if Lin [00:25:00] Manuel Miranda wants to say, I want everyone who went to Hamilton to get to cut the line, which you can think about how big this is for artists like Taylor Swift, who's, you know, their, their ticket drops get absolutely bought it.
She could say, no, we have an NFT for my true fans and they get in first and they can get the tickets so they can go to the show and maybe get extra benefits on top of it. So the ability to build on top of it and create a community and a sense of identity around it. That's where the magic happens.
[00:26:00]
Claire: You know what?
It got me, oh, this is so fun, Steve, because I'm like, I am all about like, so, things that have always bothered me, and you know, you're always like, how come this hasn't been fixed? But I think this is so exciting. Do you remember like, In high school or college or whatever, I remember getting a card and it was like 15 percent off at this store and 20 percent off at this store and, and I always thought, and like, I mean, who else didn't think this, but I was like, how have we not figured out the one stop shop?
You get this code and, or, you know, we say code, whatever it is, it's just like something that recognizes you flash it. And there's that community that you've got that car but allows you into all these places, things, accessibility. So that's kind of what you're talking about, where these business can use it.
And, you know, [00:27:00] main streets of small town communities and stuff, we could have these One pieces of identity that kind of bring a community, leveraging a community, right? Oh,
Steve: absolutely. And that's, that's the part, see, the part that excites me. Look, we talked about the ownership. So just to give like a little bit of a teaser in the book, we have this thing called the NFT staircase, which are the elements based on our academic research.
And by the way, my co author. Big brain, Harvard Business School professor, researcher for one of the top crypto, like, venture firms in the world. Like, he's brilliant, you know, like, I, I still don't know why he hangs out with me, but I'll take it. But, the but like, Eventually you'll figure out, you're cool, Steve!
The the NFT staircase, it's like, we, we, we broke it down to the following elements. Ownership, which we've explained that's table stakes, right? Utility, which I've talked a little bit about, right? If you issue an NFT, maybe you say as a business by owning this NFT, you get to vote on the next flavor of donut we put out, maybe you say you get to attend our parties, whatever that is.
Then we have Like both of those. Oh yeah, [00:28:00] like we have a small example like that where it's as simple as that. Like, vote on the donut. You actually can infallibly vote. And then you can use that as an entry ticket. And then you can still use that same flexible asset as a discount card, right? To your point.
So that one asset can be all those things. The rest of the staircase goes identity, community, and evolution. And notice identity and community are 40 percent of the staircase because Owning an NFT is an act of sort of identity in and of itself, but like, think about it this way. If you rent a house, you're probably not upgrading the kitchen.
You're probably not putting a pool in the backyard. You're probably not fencing it in because you leave. But if you own that house, you probably are upgrading the, you know, countertops. You're probably doing those things. You get to enjoy them. It increases the resale value, and it brings that value into it.
So if you own an NFT, say, like, as a membership to a local boutique, My wife loves shopping local. She shops local boutiques non stop. And, you know, she has a certain community about it, but How do you connect with other people in that community? Through a Facebook Live is the [00:29:00] only time you do it. Maybe you see them at a party that you go to.
But imagine if you had one connecting asset that you could use to access a digital space together. You could trade the best deals there. You could get to know each other. And in fact, you know, in the Starbucks Odyssey community, as an example, the top 20 members of Starbucks Odyssey got a paid trip to Costa Rica to go to the coffee roastery, or coffee farm they have there.
They were allowed to each bring one guest. There are people who are bringing plus ones they have never met in their life because they met them through that community. Think about that for any brand. So if you have a local business and you want to connect, you may create best friends within your very own community.
And in fact, my co-author and I have not met in person to this day. Even though we wrote a 250-Page book together. Because we met through an NFT community, we had a shared sense of identity around it, we met in a community space, we talked, and we ended up writing a book together. So that can happen for a small business.
That
is
Claire: really cool. Isn't it? [00:30:00] Wow. Well, it's so amazing you're saying this because some of my really close, I call them friends, I've met on the internet and I've worked with them on projects. I agree. It's like, I love my, I, I went for a walk this morning with my neighbor. Like I need that, you know, that person to person, but I agree.
That is so powerful to show that you built something so beautiful and amazing for this world and you did it through these communities that you're
Steve: talking about. Well, and I can even give you like, there's so many small business examples. What's this thing gets up and running that I think are phenomenal.
So like
Claire: fire, fire, like rapid fire, something, this is great
Steve: rapid fire. So when I was a kid, I got a big coupon book that we used to do at school. We say like, buy this coupon book for 25. Nobody used the coupons. Nobody patronized the businesses except occasionally. And we'd be like, Oh yeah, we have that thing for this local business.
Well, again, you could decide that you want to have group on, on [00:31:00] steroids. Think about it this way. If you have one. Cleveland based NFT or Columbus, Ohio based NFT or Toronto based NFT, you name it, right? You basically can say, let's get together as a small business, do this thing together, and this gets certain deals that you can program.
And because it's an NFT, you could say, this week it's going to be 20 percent off, next week it's going to be 30 percent off, next week it's a free entree or appetizer. You can test around, but it can be a connected thing where you and the business next door can say, hey, while you're here, If you buy this NFT or you own it, or you give it to someone, you can just give it to someone for free.
So they patronize your business. Don't forget to stop next door at my friend's shop because you get 20 percent off over there. So that's an example of one where they can work together under the same sort of thing and they can change the programming and it's not just bringing a coupon or remembering to do something or taking a number down to be like part of their membership program.
So like. Yeah, that's one example and you could even do this where you could say, Hey, let's work with the people two cities over so we can get cross city tourism so we can say [00:32:00] somebody two cities over can come to ours and we'll give them a deal and they'll give us a deal. And so you can program these things and people might say, and just to make like one quick other analogy, people will say, well, we can do that now, but it requires a cocktail of complex softwares that you're duct taping together.
That's.
Claire: Steve, can you say that again for our listeners? Because I think focusing on that is the ultimate reason why, you know, if it's, you know, if it's not broken, why fix it? Right. Why change it? Why? And I think this is what it is. Is people like you, you're like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. But there is a more powerful way to connect the community, because a lot of these things aren't happening because of the heavy lifting, the financial investments, the building of softwares, the like, permissions, and this and that.
Can you really, this is something so powerful. Let's say let's stick, I want to go like [00:33:00] Toronto, Ohio. Can we do Toronto and Cleveland? Let's do it. Okay, let's do Toronto, Cleveland. This is why I love people like you. Let's walk it through. What does this look like? Because one of the questions I really wanted to ask you, how do you dip your toes into?
So let's say, tomorrow, you and me, we are starting one strips, one street in our, our favorite street in our hometown, or town that you're in. How would we build that step
Steve: one? The step one it's, this is what I'll say. I heard it's incredibly difficult and I'm just going to be transparent about that. And that's why we want people to get educated on it right now.
Cause the out of box solutions for the local businesses aren't there. That said, once you're able to issue that, and you can issue that as simple as something called a proof of attendance protocol or a PO app, which is like a, just simple, like NFT you get for showing up somewhere. You could even program against something like that.
So we could issue one in Cleveland and one in Toronto for, for going to a business. And then you just do sort of the Jersey swap where you say, Hey, somebody in Toronto, if you own this NFT [00:34:00] from this local Toronto business, we in Cleveland are going to give you this incredible deal on this thing, and then they can do the same.
And you could have it open for a period of time. The city tourism departments likely could work on saying, Hey, we want to do this city swap to encourage people to visit the other cities over the summer. Toronto is beautiful in the summer. Cleveland is beautiful in the summer. So it's, Hey, let's do it in July and say we could do this sort of swap thing.
Okay. Can
Claire: I stop there? Because this is, this is a big question and I love this walkthrough. The biggest thing is, well, I, and I've heard this. Well, how does it, how do they know, how does it know it's going to honor that or it knows what it comes with? Like, how do I know if I take this leap of faith, I'm in Toronto, I go to Cleveland, I go into the shop, how is it going to recognize it?
What would you say?
Steve: And that's, and that's where the actual back end technology, the nerdy stuff comes into play, which, you know, without getting deep into it, just think of it as, they can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt, the same way that [00:35:00] my license is sort of a crude way of saying, I am me. Yeah, the NFT is sort of a more sophisticated way of saying, yes, I absolutely provably own this.
There are softwares that are being built as we speak, like something called token proof right now that a friend of mine has, has, has started who lives in actually Austin, Texas where you show up to a an event, they scan a QR code. It looks into your. Digital wallet, which is where you store these collectibles and then those collectibles say, you definitely own this thing.
You get the deal. Now how it's disseminated can be so many different ways, right? But like the information that's disseminated could come through a, you know, gated online community where they let you know that it could go through if you have your email associated with it, people are associating emails and information with it.
But that idea of building a utility and having it prove proved is through that blockchain, which. Is basically a way of saying it's a very, it's nearly, nearly 99. 9 percent impossible to hack most of these decentralized blockchains because of the way the technology is [00:36:00] built. It's something which we haven't had before and that technology.
But the truth is what I've found is most people don't actually, I tell this to my friends in crypto all the time. Nobody cares that, like, our Zoom meeting is working. We care that it works. We don't care if it's on Amazon Web Services or Azure or whatever. We care that we're talking over the internet. So I don't know.
To me, like, that's, that's the truth of the matter there. Yeah.
Claire: No, and, and I think that's, okay. So listeners stay tuned for the, the Cleveland, Toronto. Well, I'm in Kingston. So we'll, we'll do Kingston. But I love this because another plug and it's so important again, if you're just jumping in the episode, the everything token, you are like, you're hearing this from the early, early adopter and he is, he knows what's happening.
So jump in, read the book, educate yourself. Now, how do you think it's going to change our relationships with customers and building [00:37:00] business loyalty? Because I think ultimately. As small businesses, I, I was working with a succession planner and we were chatting on an episode and this idea that in, you know, five years from now and I'm really interested is that 75 businesses are really going to be exiting because of, you know, they've been in business long time.
This is now the end of, they want to go on to do things. Some will sell, some will, you know, dissolve, whatever it is. How are we going to. How is this next phase, this web three, how is it going to continue to build the loyalty of our communities and relationships with
Steve: our customers? Oh, so much. It's going to make it so your customers can become the best decentralized marketing arm you ever had.
Because by issuing them some sort of thing that they're able to own, right? Then To use the local donut shop example, right? So let's say that again, you have this donut shop NFT, you know, from a donut shop who's issuing a new flavor and they say, we want you to vote in the new flavor. You use that NFT to get one [00:38:00] vote per NFT you own.
Well, you're probably going to talk about that a little bit because you have this social currency of saying, I helped vote on this donut and I have ownership of it, right? Then you're going to maybe go to the opening to get a free one because your donut won and everybody else gets a 50 percent off who voted for another donut and you can bring a plus one.
Now you have the ability to go to that. But let's say you're out of town and can't make the donut party. Well, they've dropped you a ticket. You can give that ticket to someone else to go to that donut party. So, you know, as a business, you are giving some level of direct ownership to your customers and to them that makes them more invested in the brand to make that house analogy again.
So, you know, for many people, they feel directly connected on the outcomes of the brand. And as a business, you know, one of the things that we've noticed across NFT brands. Early on is that evolution step is something that is really, really powerful. So, you know, you might, you know, right now when businesses are trying to get answers, they might ask a couple of customers, they might do a focus group.
But when you have somebody who [00:39:00] owns something and is genuinely interested in your business, they want to see you succeed because they own that NFT. And the value of that NFT is higher based on your success. They're invested in it, right? To some degree, right? It's not an investor. It's not a financial, it's a asset they own, but the better you do, the better they do.
So for them, it's like, they're going to go out of their way to talk about your business. You know, try to improve your business. And as a evolution phase, they're like a focus group that will give you the answers to the question without you ever having to ask them. They'll tell you what to ask. And they'll give you the answer and you'll be able to iterate quicker because they're not just some customer who's upset and yelling at you.
There's somebody who loves your business, who owns something in your business and wants to see it improve.
Claire: The critical feedback is to improve it. Now, would you say for those people that are really familiar? Cause when, when we're talking about this, and I think this is why I've had, I've had a lot of friends, including my brother, like.
Big into crowdsourcing, the crowdfunding space. Would that have been some sort of why it was so powerful? [00:40:00] Because, you know, you are part of like, if something is being put out, whether it's a new product or service, they're buying in knowing that they have in some form participation in the evolution of it.
Ownership is different in web three though.
Steve: Absolutely. That's absolutely something you can do and you can do it in a variety of ways, right? But the other thing that is cool about this symbiotic relationship, to use the bigger example, let's use the Taylor Swift example, because I, I, I, I'm a, look, I'm a Swifty, I love T Swift, so I'll just, I'll put it out there.
You're getting
Claire: more cool points by the minute of this episode, Steve. So, you know, if they haven't heard anything, they heard you're a Swifty, this is great.
Steve: Oh, I, I can, I mean, my flex goes back to, I remember, you know, when Tim McGraw came out and, you know, she was 16 and, you know, that was her first single and listening to that in the car.
So I, I, I, you know, I, I get flex on my daughter. But like Taylor Swift, she actually went through an incredible battle with. Record companies, right? Because they, you know, how those two way [00:41:00] relationships go. And in fact, when I was growing up, also a fan of the Backstreet Boys, they were making like 100, 000 a year when they were the biggest band in the world because of their manager.
Imagine, imagine a world where Taylor Swift, as she's coming up 16, playing honky tonks with her parents, is able to say, I'm going to issue, you know, 20, 000 NFTs for 500 each. And with these NFTs, you will get access to my concerts and whatever, right? You might buy one in support. Then it actually becomes the biggest act in the world.
And suddenly that gets you gated access to buy tickets, maybe access to buy exclusive merchandise, maybe the opportunity to go to meet and greets or virtual meet and greets. What do you think happens to the value of those NFTs? They go up. And then, what happens every time it's sold? Well, it's software, so she gets a royalty every time it's sold.
So, Taylor Swift is motivated to add value back to the NFTs. The Swifties are motivated to get the NFTs and utilize the utility, or Eventually sell them to someone who wants that utility. And so, you know, there's a million ways that the brand can interact with [00:42:00] this, but you can imagine where a local business maybe has a small run on a, my wife just got this green sweatshirt from a local business here so much so that like, She got the flex.
She went to, we went to one of my kids soccer games and it was like a green like sweatshirt and someone was like, I know what, I know where that's from. Those were rare. And so she like, she got the flex, right? But if that small business had a small run of those and their NFT holders got first crack at them.
Let's say that they drop them another NFT that says you could claim the sweatshirt. Well, my wife could decide I want this sweatshirt because I want to represent the brand, or I want to sell this to someone else for. 100. Well, that local business could get 5 of that 100 sale that my wife had. My wife gets 95 all and all it is is the right to buy the T shirt, the shirt, right?
So they're going to make the sale. They're going to get the hand in the hands of someone else. They're going to get a secondary royalty. And this relationship is very cyclical where you can decide the things you want to participate in the things you don't. And by tokenizing it, And putting that aspect to it, you can make royalty money, as well as [00:43:00] get your people excited about it, and talking about your brand.
You know, it's like, people already represent identity, like Think about how many people have like standing in front of the Disney Magic Kingdom castle as their profile picture on Facebook, right? That's just a form of digital identity of a community. Imagine if you could connect all those Disney moms and dads, also a big Disney fan by the way, Disney moms and dads together in a digital space.
Like that's, you could create those friendships and those opportunities and then they're going to spin off other things and like proliferate your brand to other people. So the opportunities are endless whether you're a small business or a big one.
Claire: I love this 'cause I now, this is gonna be a two-parter episode because we're going, I had all, I had a few questions and I'm like, oh my gosh.
Okay, Steve, I'm gonna ask you, you know the elephant in the room here though, and, and correct me if I'm wrong, I will be very embarrassed, but hey, this is live. Why isn't Taylor Swift doing this? If this is the biggest thing and she's a marketing genius, I'll give her that. [00:44:00] Her music, Hey, I might make, I might not make, you know, I was, I was an okay listener.
I'm not gonna lie. But I think she's a genius marketer. I will give her a genius. Why is she not doing this?
Steve: I think right now there's some challenges with the market design and the infrastructure, and when you are that big, you need to figure out the best way to issue it. So like, part of the problem is putting the genie back in the bottle.
Taylor Swift is one of like, a few acts, you know, like the Post Malone's of the world, the Ed Sheeran's of the world, who sell out. Arenas, stadiums, outdoor stadiums, right? Luke Combs, like people like that, right? Who are selling out massive, massive venues. How do you find those true fans now? How do you determine that those true fans are really your fans versus the ones that are maybe the people who want to just get it, gouge it on the secondary market?
How do you issue those? So I think the challenge is. I think we get there with most artists, but it's got to start almost small, you know, the most elegant way is starting [00:45:00] small because if you see a local band at your local, you know, local, like, hole in the wall, and they're issuing NFTs, and you buy to support them, and then they become, you know, I remember seeing, you know, A band from my childhood, Sugar Ray, play at like a small little backyard.
They're from Cleveland? What's up? Where are they from? Well, no, they were, they were touring. I don't remember where they're from. Yeah. But they were touring and they were in like this little backyard. I love Sugar Ray! Oh man, I saw them before their, Major album drop 1459 was one of their big albums. I saw him when the fly album was going and they played this tiny, tiny like venue called like the Agora, which is like a small few hundred person venue, right?
You know,
Claire: right. I haven't, I'm going to listen to them right
Steve: after this. So thank you. Oh, they got so many. They just put out banger after banger, but like sugar Ray, like I saw them small. If I bought a sugar and then they're selling out arenas. Yeah. It's like, that would have been the ideal. Cause I was a big enough fan to go to that small thing.
So to me, the reason why a lot of like [00:46:00] bands aren't doing this is because the challenge is people who are incredibly savvy about the software, incredibly savvy about the information. Might front run. And then you have the same problem you have now of gouging on the secondary market or at least one level.
So if I'm Taylor Swift, I'm trying to think of the most thoughtful way. Now, I don't know what that is. Is it creating online communities? Is it finding those people that way and having them connect and then identifying them through some historical thing? I think it requires a tremendous amount of work to suss out sort of the pretenders from the contenders and the signal from the noise.
So that would be my.
Claire: That's a brilliant response. I actually didn't think like that, but it's the, yeah, you want to start this small. Okay. Our listeners today as we're wrapping up the episode, I really think it, this episode is, I'm like so excited. I'm like, Hmm, after this, like, what am I going to, what am I going to build next?
And I, and I too, like, it's all about community, building the community around products and services and building [00:47:00] that connection. There's, there's someone listening right now and they're like, okay, this is all like, I'm amped up. I'm excited. But really we At the day, we want people to take action and start building this.
What do they do, truly? Like, is there a Web3 agency that they need to reach out to? Because if the tech is something that already, you know, they don't have those skills. And that's the reality of a lot of businesses that have been traditionally running. And I know that that's the barrier. We have talked about that, is that first step.
But what would you say to these listeners?
Steve: I would say this is what I said early on in the internet as well back when, you know, David Letterman like was joking with Bill Gates that the internet was a You know, with that, that the radio and a tape recorder were a, you know, acceptable, you know, current technology to the internet.
I would say the same thing to people, which is get online. I would tell people get online and try it. [00:48:00] So my answer is if I could make two recommendations, you know shamelessly our book, the everything token. And that
Claire: was going to be me too. Don't worry. That's coming. It's like, that's a no brainer. The everything token.
Buy, download, listen to Audible. Are you, are you the voiceover? Yes.
Steve: Yeah, I'm one of two. I'm one of two. I had to slow down a lot. But yeah, we did it. We did it. We made it work. Me and my co author. I haven't
Claire: listened to it, so this is good. I have the book, but I'm excited now. I'm
Steve: gonna get the Audible.
There will be a familiar voice right off the rip. And then Read Right On by Chris Dixon is a phenomenal primer, so that'll kind of get you caught up to speed. So, in those and You know, less than 12 hours. You could have your entire, you know, knowledge scope right there. Thing. Number two, what I would say, explore, look.
If you want to be early and take advantage of this, it's like anything else. Somebody who's an explorer has to taste the berries on the bush to see if they're poison. So if I'm you, I am setting up a wallet on, you know, various platforms, which is going to be a little more [00:49:00] level of complexity. That's your like 202 stuff.
First, the books are going to be your 101, 102 stuff. Set up wallets on the various blockchains and start Playing around. You don't have to buy things that are super expensive. You don't have to spend a ton of money, but understand how it works in the dynamics because you know, just that small amount of knowledge will position you infinitely in front of people.
Because I have an inclination based on, you know, we talked a little bit before we were on about AI and how much that can affect the future of how things are built. Like someone could code a website. Without having to like put the code in because you can just ask chat, GBT and, and various platforms for it.
So my answer would be, you know, this stuff's going to get here quicker than people realize. And if you want to be the early of the late adopters,
Claire: Not the early, early, the early, early is gone by Steve.
Steve: Yeah, the medium adopters. Under read the books and then start toying around. And in fact, I'll just tell one quick story because it's like the most heartwarming story for me that gives me the chills.
Yes! [00:50:00] I love stories. I did a podcast with someone before the book came out. Okay. And I got, it was set to come out after the book came out and I got a bunch of hard card, hardcover copies before the book came out. Like it was the coolest moment. It was like getting to hold it in my hand. And the person who I was doing the podcast with was like, he's in his forties like me.
And he said, look, my dad is super tech savvy. He plays, you know, he plays chess with me in the Oculus, but he just doesn't get NFTs. He's like, and I've been in NFTs for three years and I love him. I was like, well, how about this book's not out yet. Let me send him a signed copy of the book and just shoot it his way and maybe he'll read it and see what he thinks and he's like my dad would be open to that he loves reading got a message from him a few weeks later he said let me send you the following text message from my dad first text message i'm nine pages in i'm finally starting to understand what this web3 thing is you've been telling me about two chapters in i've set up a wallet four chapters in i've nft now when you think about how connected people are to their nfts you I have created a bond, me and my co author have somehow managed to fortify a bond between [00:51:00] a father and a son.
And, to me, that's the quintessential, like, forget the numbers, forget the bestseller on Amazon and all that stuff, which was awesome, don't get me wrong. I
Claire: love that you're getting that, and I'm like, he got a wallet?
Steve: It's, that's what it is though, this is why we wrote this book, so people who are listening to this can say, I can read this.
I can get this. I can understand this. And when that time comes, they're going to be ready to strike. And here's what I'll leave it on. You want to be learning about this stuff because the last thing you want to do is be Blockbuster when Netflix and streaming come along. Boom! That,
Claire: yeah, sorry, sorry. I am, I'm a musician and I gotta, the theatrics fun.
What do you play? What do you play? I'm a fiddle player.
Steve: Really? Yes. Oh, I love that. 30 years.
Claire: I'm I'm actually just flipped my garage into a studio and I was just out for a walk. This is actually crazy, crazy. This [00:52:00] is fun. I don't know if we're going to air this, but maybe we'll, why not? We're all walking and.
This girl that I was absolutely just loved. I saw at a really small festival. And this is why, when we're talking about this, first of all, how can we turn this podcast episode into an NFT? First thought, second thought was we were out walking and my my girlfriend, she was in a band with low, low. That's how you spell it.
L O W E L L. And she's like, we're talking about my little son loves the Texas hold them Beyonce song that just came out. Fun fact, she's like, yeah, she wrote that song with Beyonce and I'm like, wait, what? Like, trust me, this is like, and I'm like, hold on, didn't know this. And I was like, okay, this is so crazy.
Cause you're in a small, small, we're in a small, small, small town. He's been a drummer. So anyways, long story short, we were like laughing because we're [00:53:00] like, you know, there's this connection where you're in a small town, but you can be connected to this big world because obviously the internet creating this.
And now that we're talking about this, imagine with artists just starting up. Having, you know, these NFTs that, as you never know what can happen to the music, it takes off, maybe the Sugar Ray of NFTs. Anyways, just wild having this conversation. I am so excited to get more people. So excited about this next movement and like you said, it's, it's moving so quickly and I think, you know, the term NFT is going to change.
Is there any one piece of advice because we didn't really touch on it. And I think a lot of people, you know, the whole tech seems daunting or, you know, it seems like a scam because when everything blew up in flames, you know, people have that hesitancy. What word of advice could you leave our audience
Steve: today?
Just be intellectually [00:54:00] curious and understand that technology moves really quickly and you have the opportunity right now it is like an unprecedented opportunity to be early because I will say this the access to being early like we didn't even talk about like how significantly you know this can be for people in countries of unrest who are going to be able to like take their money and their own.
Teaching degrees and things to other countries instead of starting over, right? Which is like, the real, to me, that's the most poetic application, right? Like, if you flee a country, like, you know, I know, I talked to someone who left Russia about 20 years ago, I believe it was, and they weren't allowed to bring any belongings.
If your money and other things are on the blockchain, like, Birth certificates,
Claire: existence, yes, like you know how, oh my gosh, had a conversation trying to get passports, birth certificates of people that died to get dual citizenship, these,
Steve: yes. The identity aspects are huge, but like, I guess, healthcare and identity, yeah.
Oh, healthcare is, is a massive one, that's another [00:55:00] one, like, but like, it's a whole lot of all wax, but like, my big thing is like, you know, when Web 1 came along, There was a major financial and time barrier and access to information barrier when web two came along. The same thing. Right now, we have the entire power of the world and the internet on a six inch screen in the palm of our hands.
You can learn everything you want and need to, and you can find people who will educate you and talk to you like never before. So my recommendation is, be intellectually curious, and whether you're interested in this stuff or not, figure out if it is for you. You may read the book and say, not for me or not for me right now.
But at least, you know, and I think that that's the big advice I'd give to people is like, use the power. Like it's more of an overarching thing, even beyond web three. Use the power that we are given with the internet for what it is intended for and make connections everywhere because we've never been able to access people and information better than before.
Just be intellectually curious to make it [00:56:00] work for you. Cause don't get me wrong. I love doom scrolling Instagram for hilarious memes and videos, but at the same time, there's so many powerful uses that you can have at this point. You can take Yale classes for free online. Do it. Take, take your time to do it and take the time to use it for all those to be intellectually curious because there's, there's a whole world out there that you now have in the palm of your hand.
Love it.
Claire: Steve, you are awesome. You are truly the early, early, early adopter of you know, the future of communities, the way we buy, the way we sell. And this is really special that you were able to come on the pod with us. Thank
Steve: you. Thank you for having me on. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And my last nineties reference on the way out the door, I'm sure you get it all the time.
You, you look a bit like Christina Aguilera. Do you get that? Ever? Oh yeah. Now do you see it? Look at yourself. I love,
Claire: I'm so no, I get lady Gaga or Scarlett
Steve: Johansson. Oh, I can see those two. I [00:57:00] can see those two. I can see those two, but like, I immediately jumped out at Christine Aguilera as soon as I was saying it.
I was like, I should have used the example. Cause you probably get that all the time.
Claire: No, this is awesome. Okay. This is fun. No Polish, Polish, both sides of the family, which. By your last name. Yeah, you got it. Yep. Yes. Okay. I was like, yeah yeah. Immigrants from a world war two. Yeah. Crazy story. So go Poland.
This is awesome. Thank you, Steve. And I'm so excited for the world to hear this. Cheers.
