#38 John Conrad - Leadership (Edited)
===
[00:00:00]
John Conrad: Leading doesn't mean that I'm in charge and I make all the decisions. Leading again is this idea of what can I do to make those that are in my primary relationships and I'm creating conditions for success for them,? It's not about here's the thing I need you to help me get to there. Leadership is not in my view and this type of leadership is about. Am I making those around me successful?
Welcome to the Small Town Entrepreneur Podcast with your host Claire Bouvier. Myself, I am so pumped. We have Dr. John Conrad with us today talking about something that maybe isn't as sexy as we [00:01:00] think about marketing and sales funnel and AI, but is Essentially, the foundation for all good business is leadership.
So I'm so excited to jump in and share this conversation and looking at the work that he's done and all the experiences he's worked in navigating the leadership space and how we can build better leaders in today.
So let's jump in. And let's talk to John Conrad.
Claire: Welcome to the Small Town Entrepreneur Podcast, Dr. John Conrad.
John Conrad: That's the best intro I've ever had.
Claire: Great. I'm glad that I could, I got to do it for you. I wish I could have like gone longer, but welcome. We're going to do, the audience has just heard a little intro on the incredible work you've done. But we're going to dive in today and look at leadership. It's funny because the podcast.
Claire: That I have created talks a lot about a [00:02:00] sexy topics that people love to hear about is a I gonna replace you What's the top things you can do in marketing in 2024? But it's funny as soon as we start talking about things like leadership They're not you know, that's not the clickbait today. That's doesn't disrupt the noise So let's disrupt Today and talk about why leadership is across every sector in every part from academia to the business worlds to our education systems.
Claire: Why is leadership so important?
John Conrad: For me, I think, you know, I, I view the words innovation and leadership as synonymous. I don't, they're, they require the same things that they re, they require,~ uh,~ us to be able to understand someone, be able to influence others, be able to solve problems, deal with conflicts.
John Conrad: ~Um, ~I think, I think on the leadership thing [00:03:00] is, I think most people think they can lead. Right? ~Um, ~you know, if you've got a title, so if you're a manager, you say, well, I'm a manager, so I must therefore be able to bleed. ~Um, ~and so, so I, but I don't think that's the case. And so, you know, when I talk with innovators and they've got lots of ideas and they're saying, well, I'm an innovator because I have ideas and I think, you know, those two things in the sense of I'm a manager.
John Conrad: So therefore I can lead. I mean, I have ideas. So there I can innovate. Right. Well, we know that both of those things are false, right? That just because I have a title or I create ideas doesn't mean I'm actually capable to do what's needed to do all the things to, to actually have it come to fruition. So both leadership and innovation are, are movement things.
John Conrad: They're, they're action. You know, we're, we're trying to move from A to B. We're trying to transform. We're trying to grow and, and to do that. Requires a lot of day in and day out work. That's not sexy. It's not exciting. It means you have to come in and talk to people and [00:04:00] understand who they are and what, what are they going through today?
John Conrad: And what are the challenges? Are they on their game? Are they not on their game? ~Um, ~you know, what can I do to help them? What can I do to increase their chances of success? ~Um, ~I have to be able to deal with conflict, like real conflict, like people, you know, we're, we're going to have disagreements and, and,~ uh,~ you know, people don't like that.
John Conrad: Right. I've got a real good background in dealing with conflict, but I don't enjoy it. ~Um, ~because it's uncomfortable, right? So leadership, the, the pieces of leadership people like, and the people's pieces of innovation are like, are what people see and going, well, here's the product. Here's the thing. Here's my team.
John Conrad: ~Um, ~but I think good leaders and good innovators, their work is lonely, right? Because it's hard. ~Um, ~and so that, that difficulty of. Well, how do I, you know, I've got to go to Claire and I've got to say, Hey Claire, I think that idea is wrong. Right? Yeah. Right. And, but that's uncomfortable. Why? Well, but, but, but again, some people don't receive that well.
John Conrad: It's really [00:05:00] hard. Right. So I think those are the pieces there that around leadership, but why it's not. You know, we, we look at these theories and we look at this and that person's a good leader, but we don't see the day in and day out mucky, muck, dirty stuff. Right. Yeah. The behaviors that have to be demonstrated consistently all the time.
John Conrad: ~Um, ~that, that are, that can be alienating, can be lonely, can be isolating, but if you persist and you're able to do it, can then see over time and like, Oh yeah, that person's a great leader. Not realizing it took them 10 years. Yeah, right of just things that no one notices Right. And, and, and then they get there and it's like, wow, look at that team.
John Conrad: They're so high performing. Yeah. It's like a light. Everybody thinks it's a light switch. Oh, that's easy to do. And turn on and off. And I, from my experience, it's a lot of, it's a lot of grind, right? It's like getting for a race. No one sees the miles you put in, right?
Claire: No, no. Those quiet moments trying to mull over something.
Claire: And it's interesting because we [00:06:00] all can think of a time, whether it was. A ridiculous summer job or, you know, in a big company, we can think of, we all know the repercussions of really poor management, poor leadership. We don't need to go into those. So how, what are some of the unique tactics or principles or strategies to foster?
Claire: I
John Conrad: think some of the things I've done and just, you know, based on what I've read and based on theory, but also based on just practicing is, is, you know, I think leadership is how do I, how do I get people to see the same vision or destination? Right. It's not so much, you know, people go, I agree with the vision and I agree, but actually to see it and feel it and live it,~ um,~ you have to have some ability to influence others.
John Conrad: Right. That's a good one. And. I think, I think influence doesn't come from carrots and sticks necessarily. I think those are needed. Yeah. You have to have some sort of obvious [00:07:00] incentives for people, but I think really, you know, when I look at the teams that I've had and had great success, it's empathy, it's kindness, it's compassion, it's gratitude.
John Conrad: Those things are much more durable from a relationship standpoint and influencing standpoint. Then, you know what, Claire, here's a thousand dollars. I need you to do this. So you may do that once and here's the transaction and you're fine with that, but you know, you don't, you're not caring about me.
John Conrad: You're like, yeah, and you can do great work and it's awesome. Right. But for me to come back to that and you'd say, well, you know what, John, like, yeah, that was great last time, but you know, this time 1200 bucks. Right. And, but I find if I'm caring and I'm compassionate, I know where you're sitting and what you're living and what you're going through.
John Conrad: And I'm trying to, you know, look out for your success. The dollars somewhat I don't say they're irrelevant, but they become less important So so that that empathy kindness compassion gratitude Those are things that you you you can [00:08:00] influence on that are sustainable and durable and I look at my And I think, you know, I always say to people, it's, it's not the Rolodex and how many are in the Rolodex.
John Conrad: It's, it's how quickly do people respond when you send them a message? Because that's about, it's about me and them. It's about, I helped them at some point and it's not that they feel guilty. They're like, I want to help John. Yeah. Right. They want, they want to see me successful. And I think. So probably for the last 15, 20 years, my, I say this with every team.
John Conrad: My job is to make you successful, right? That that's my job as the director make you successful. And they're like, well, what does that mean? I don't know. I said, you know, what depends what you need. And so I spend time just, and so I really, the basis is I need to know who people are. I need to know, you know, what, what are they struggling with?
John Conrad: What their competencies are. I need to, to, to allow them lots of, lots of lane, lots of freedom, lots of risk taking. ~Um, ~and when it screws up, I'm [00:09:00] the one who's accountable, not them. And that's hard for people this, you know, if Claire, you and I were working together and you're doing something, I give you the runway and you fail, then it's me who has to be accountable.
John Conrad: Doesn't mean you're not accountable, but it's, it's me as the boss who takes the heat, not you. Right. And, and that, that requires a lot of trust and a lot of.
Claire: Right. So it's funny that you say this because,~ uh,~ I remember I was a waitress, a server for like nine years. And it's funny at the end of the day, like.
Claire: I'm just delivering whatever came out of the kitchen and whatever I put down in front of them. I take all the heat and I remember, Oh my goodness, the best learning I have ever had in any job has been waiting tables in restaurants. And every time you have to win them over in the course of a meal, whatever it is now.
Claire: You talked about, I really like that, that you, [00:10:00] you know, what is success for that person? Because it's true, you know, for some people, their need could be monetary. Their need could be having some, you know, fulfillment in the career, whatever it is. Now it's interesting because we've seen post COVID the, it's funny, I had another conversation with someone on the other side of the world, same struggle, cannot find.
Claire: Strong workers, no matter how small or big the company is really struggling either retention or recruitment. And it's interesting because as we know, change is constant, always moving, and especially in leadership. Is this a problem in leadership or maybe I'm kind of going outside the lane here, or is it what, what's happening in the world right now that we're seeing such a.
Claire: We're struggling for getting people to come and join our teams, so to speak.
John Conrad: Well, I think there's two things. So one [00:11:00] is I think, you know, so take this notion of supervision and management out of it. Yeah. ~Um, ~good leadership,~ um,~ is difficult. ~Um, ~but also I think good leadership is all around us. There are people doing things.
John Conrad: ~Um, ~and sometimes we don't, they don't call it leadership. They don't, they don't call it those things. But I think where, where the struggle is, is, is on one end people, you know, if, if I, if I, you know, this, it's this merge between, you know, I think people don't want to be in charge anymore, right? Like what?
Claire: But
John Conrad: why? Well, because I mean, there's, there's a lot like, you know, so I think of, you know, if I were to, if I climbed the ladder and within the organization, right, and I moved from a director to an EP or not, the level of discourse, just like there is in everything in the world becomes more significant. And it's like, who, who would want to put up with that?
John Conrad: Right. [00:12:00] Like if I was a VP or a president, why would I want to deal with that stuff? Right. Like it's just constant discourse. Right. And it, and it takes away from the things that you want to do, right. The things that you're good at. So, so I, one is, I think, I think that sort of eliminates some people from moving up in an organization, but it doesn't eliminate leadership necessarily, like those people who sell great leadership skills.
John Conrad: Right. I, I see in our organization, there's a lot of great leaders. but actually have no supervisory responsibility. They don't, they don't crave that, right? But, but they are out there driving change, driving innovation, driving success in others. ~Um, ~so I think that's one thing. The other part around talent is, you know what, I don't think we believe you need to believe in someone.
John Conrad: ~Um, ~you know, there's, there's a lot of stuff around here, around the vicious and virtuous cycle and that. If I believe in someone's ability to be a superstar, just simply my belief, I can improve their performance by up to 30 percent just simply from, from a belief, not, not actually doing anything else other than that.
John Conrad: You know, Claire, if I think you're a [00:13:00] superstar and I can tell me I am,
Claire: okay, you
John Conrad: are, you are a superstar,
Claire: humility,
John Conrad: but, but, but you, you, you see it, right. You know, when you, when you look at your children, you believe in them, it does drive their performance. And if the opposite is true, when you don't quite believe they're a superstar, it doesn't mean you're being mean or nasty to them.
John Conrad: But if I don't believe someone is capable, even though I hire them, well, they're never going to be capable because all we're doing is looking for things that reinforce my belief system. Right? So I think the same as in leadership is, so when I hire staff, yes, I look through the technical and I look through this, but at the end of the day, I'm going, is this a person that I believe in?
John Conrad: Right. And, and, and if I go into the mindset of. Yeah, you know, maybe they're not perfect at doing this thing, but I believe they can be and I believe that they they that that That that gives a lot of people confidence. I look back at the people who've believed in me Yeah, Wow, [00:14:00] like it's transformative right and it's not and I've also had the opposite where you know, they didn't believe that I was good And but you know, but it wasn't about performance necessarily, but there's always this, you know The way they would question you would be like wow, so then I start getting in my head.
John Conrad: Yeah, I want oh, okay I I better do it better and then you do it again It's like oh you forgot this you forgot that and it just becomes a cycle and it's they're they're hard to break out of So, so I think, you know, when you go to hire people, yeah, you know, I don't know if there's, maybe there's a talent gap.
John Conrad: Maybe I don't know. Right. Like when I look at, I hire, I have no problems recruiting people and hiring people because I think people want to work for me. Yeah. Right. I
Claire: will. Right. So I sit here and I'm like, yeah, it's all good. I can vouch for that. Yeah.
John Conrad: Like, you know, people want to work for me. They, they, I get off and say, John, what's it like to, I want to, how do I get to work in your department?
John Conrad: How do I, right. But I think that comes from years and years and years of. Of, you know, building your, your reputation, but it's, it's built on it. You know, the [00:15:00] word of mouth business is the best business I've found is when someone brings you up in a conversation that has nothing, you're not even there and part of,~ uh,~ and then they see them later and they go, I was just talking about you and blah, blah, blah.
John Conrad: Right. And now, you know, like, yeah, it becomes probably grander than it really is, but that's okay. ~Um, ~right. ~Um, ~and I think the negative, the other, the other side of that is true. So, so yeah, I think there are certain skills that are, that are lacking, but I think, you know, I think when we hire, we also believe I want to hire some and I want them to just go do their thing.
John Conrad: I don't wanna have to worry about them. I did like, I want them, you know, good leadership. I hire someone going, okay, where will they be? Can they take over my job? Where will they be in five years? Yeah, like, yeah, there's technical things and no one's perfect and there's, you know, but if I find some, some inner drive in that person, some way to pull that out of an interview process that these people, there's something there, there's that je ne sais quoi, that thing, it's hard to define and grasp and write.
John Conrad: I get, I [00:16:00] get jazzed about that. Right. Then I'm able to go, Oh yeah, this is a person I can build a relationship with. And this is a person I know if I give them the right amount of autonomy and responsibility and give them enough runway and give them enough support, you know, within 18 months, 20, 24 months, I just sit back.
John Conrad: Right. I'm like, good. That's my hands off. We go. So when I hire, I'm not thinking about the duties as much as. Thinking about is this someone that fits or someone that is able to be,~ um,~ to drive themselves with the right support. Now, in the work I do, that may fit. In other work, it may not fit. But even when I used to hire faculty.
John Conrad: I often said, okay, well, what are they bringing? And the interesting part of this is, and I ask,~ uh,~ when I make decisions, when we're down to the final sort of straws and making decisions, I don't sit there and I go, well, what are they, can they fit into my team? I'm like, what are they adding to my team?
John Conrad: Right. It's not, it's not about fitting my culture. [00:17:00] Right. And I think sometimes with employers, they're, they're like, well, they have to fit with me. And I go, good leaders. Are the ones who adapt and are malleable, not, not the employee, like I'm the one who has to be adjustable, not them.
Claire: And I think that's, that's where, you know, the change is always happening because you're, you're building on that.
Claire: Now, it's interesting because a lot of our listeners, it'd be like, well, This doesn't relate to me. I don't need to worry about, you know, leadership because I'm just the leader of myself. You know, I just sit in my basement and work on my business and the odd time I go out and about. But can you speak to the solopreneur, the person that doesn't have, you know, maybe the autonomy you're talking about or the opportunity, what is leadership for
John Conrad: them?
John Conrad: I don't think it's any different. I mean, you, you, this idea of that I'm only one person of one. Right. Whether. So what about your friends, your peer network, your relationships, your business relationships, your suppliers, your customers. All of [00:18:00] those things you can, you can lead within that environment and leading doesn't mean that I'm in charge and I make all the decisions.
John Conrad: Leading again is this idea of what can I do to make those that are in my, you know, I'll say my primary relationships and I'm creating conditions for success for them, right? It's not about here's the thing I need you to help me get to there. Leadership is not in my view and this type of leadership is about.
John Conrad: Am I making those around me successful? So if I'm a solopreneur Yeah. And I'm like, I've got a thing I sell. Okay, great. If you're only viewing transactional, yeah, it will, it will die at some point. And I agree. And that leads to, and that could be a perfectly good business model. Great company sell. Yeah.
John Conrad: Done.
Claire: Yeah. The drop
John Conrad: shipping, it's not a moral issue, it's just this Yeah, it's, it's,
Claire: yeah. What you designed. But
John Conrad: transformation doesn't happen without leadership
Claire: [00:19:00] Ultimately. That's what really building, to me, I would say building a business is, what problem are you solving? Yes. And what will be the transformation with the solution that you're offering?
Claire: Yes. And in that case, so it's interesting because When it comes down to it, it's really creating strong engagement. You've built very high performing teams. Yeah. And you've talked about giving them, you know, the autonomy, the empathy. Has, is there a certain when you're building these teams? And they're going off on their own.
Claire: Is there anything in particular that you've done that has been really successful?
John Conrad: I, I, I give people, I don't give people work. I give people problems. Maybe that, that can be taken along. Yeah. Here's another problem for it. No, I know. I like that. Yeah. But everything's framed as a challenge or a problem. My job is, is I don't want them just coming up with a solution.[00:20:00]
John Conrad: No. Right? ~Uh, ~I, I want them, yeah, they, so if I say, here's the challenge, you know, whatever. So we're, we've got these assets at work and we're like, okay, how do we make more money off of these, these things that we have? Right? So I could simply go to the person who works, who's responsible and say, go, go to the school board and do this, this, and this, and they'll do it and they'd be perfectly happy doing it.
John Conrad: Right? Yeah. But, but to me, then I'm just doing that, their work, right? Like there's no transformation happening. We're just. Again transactionally mindset, but if I said, you know what we have this asset You know, we could use this to engage people,~ um,~ like think about how we can use this thing and engage as many different people as we can, right?
John Conrad: And think about that problem as a first problem. The second problem is, well, then how do we make some money off of that? But if I simply said we have this asset, go make money off of it. I think limits, limits your, because it narrows our mindset to say, well, it has to be revenue generated. So when I [00:21:00] think of the work we do,~ um,~ sometimes engagement.
John Conrad: generates opportunity that makes the money. So it's not the assets is making me the money. It's the asset being used for engagement purposes that creates an opportunity for some other source of money to be generated, whether it's a grant or whatever. Right. So I think it's being able to, to be broader in the thinking.
John Conrad: So. So to me, I think that's, that's one thing is the other thing I think I do is when people come back to me. So when my staff come to me and say, I've got a problem,~ um,~ they have to have, they have to have some ideas with them because, because I might, you know, they were saying, well, John, I need, I can't do this.
John Conrad: And I'm like, okay. That's fine. And then they're looking for me for an answer and I'm like, that's not how it works, right? You have to come and say, here's the challenge and problem. Here's the things I'm thinking about. And then my job is to, I say this all the time. When you're done a conversation with me, when you work for me, I should leave you with more questions than answers because I think questions are the juice or the fuel, not answers.
John Conrad: [00:22:00] I
Claire: completely agree, which, which is, oh, why I was, I was the kid in school asking too many questions and it didn't serve me, but
John Conrad: no, and, and, but that's, again, around when you think of leadership, it doesn't necessarily, there's not a reward for those behaviors in most of our structures, right? So asking questions, I ask questions here all the time and it's seen as you're challenging, you disagree.
John Conrad: Yes. And partly I am, partly I'm trying to understand, but mostly I'm going, I think there's another opportunity here. But because I'm asking questions, my head isn't around what that opportunity could look like. Right. No. And
Claire: so. Yeah. Okay. So sorry, I interrupted you, but you had said something. I'm really good at that too.
Claire: You had said something to, you know. You're put in a tough position a lot to essentially figure out, you know, what is the best way to move forward? You're always caught, especially working in the academic world and [00:23:00] working in small businesses and in the innovation sectors. How do you balance, you know, by taking those risks, creating that innovation, but also, you know, you have that fiscal responsibility, you have these other.
Claire: Practicalities. How do you balance that when dealing with these tough decisions?
John Conrad: Yeah. So, so partly it's, I think it's just a natural mindset to, to, well, I've worked most of my career in education. So in education, we have constraints that we can do nothing about, right? So, so when you accept that, then I don't spend time trying to address those constraints.
John Conrad: Right? So when, when something comes up here and I, I find not, not just with new managers, but when we, when we're faced with an organizational challenge and a problem, right? And then people are like, Oh, well we got to do this. We got to do that. But we're, we're tackling the same constraints that have existed since my time in high in education, which is over 30 [00:24:00] years, probably pre existed me probably goes back to the first creation of a university.
John Conrad: There's some constraints around education. Right. That, that are, doesn't mean they're not solvable. They're very immovable. Right. They're take out. So, so I just automatically, yeah, let's let, can we not like, let's go to the space where there are no rules and there are no, I think that's the natural ability for me to, to go, yeah, yeah.
John Conrad: I get, I get, we only have so much money. I get that we have a rigorous budget process. I get we're accountable to governments. I get, I get all that. Right. So, so when we face an organizational problem, we're like, Oh, only if the government would change, could we do this?
Claire: That's that's your plan. We can't change that.
Claire: Yeah,
John Conrad: it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who I vote for. It's not going to make significant change to the way we deliver education in Ontario. Right.
Claire: I love that. What you said that they'll find the space where you can
John Conrad: there's there's more. There's well, I remember registrar saying, John, you're a rule breaker.[00:25:00]
John Conrad: Actually, I'm not. And he's like, yes, you are. And I go, well, what rules have I broken? He's like, wow. I go, no, I follow the rules, but where there are no rules, yes, it feels like I'm breaking the rules because no one has thought of it. No one has tried. Right. Now you, you have to have, you have to run, like I have to run my business.
John Conrad: I have things that I have to run that we have to, we have to meet our expectations. The checkbox. Right. And, and you, you got it. You, you know, this idea of, of innovators not being practical, I think that's another trap. Right? Like innovators aren't just about ideas. Like people go, John, you're just so creative and you're just so, this is, I'm like, yeah, but I get my work done, right?
John Conrad: You execute. I execute. You, you got, you got to, you got to do management work. I got to, I got to build a plan. I got to build a budget. I got to sign the agreements. I got to do all that stuff. But I do that very quickly, right? Like do the stuff I don't like very quickly, [00:26:00] and then I can, then I can be creative, but the creativity comes through again, going back to this idea of leadership, because I talk to people, even my staff, they're my biggest source of inspiration.
John Conrad: It's not, yeah, I read things and all that, but it's, it's listening to someone talk about what they're doing at work. That really triggers my, my brain,
Claire: right? Yeah. I, and I think that is so cool and that's going to really resonate with me forever because I kind of err on the line of, you know, where can we explore?
Claire: But I think it's true is like find the spaces that no one has explored and disrupted in the way that you can, that works with you. Okay. So,~ uh,~ we have just a couple of little more questions here. But what would be after 30 plus years and just, you are an incredible leader for the spaces you're in, say, whoever you are, you're entering a very difficult [00:27:00] situation.
Claire: You have a tough situation. Do you do a pros and cons? How do you approach? I know I'm kind of like, but like, what's the practical if I'm sitting here and my anxiety is just taking me over because I don't know how to go about it. You know, you're getting in your head. What's, what's the John, the Dr. Conrad
John Conrad: approach?
John Conrad: Two things. So one is,~ uh,~ when I face a problem,~ um,~ I, I don't sleep, right? Probably like most people. I, I, either that or I wake up and then my brain starts, right? And what I've learned probably in the last 10 years or so is to really realize and going the minute I take an action Toward that problem doesn't matter how small or how big I feel better.
John Conrad: Yeah, I just need it I just need to take an action I need and so So, you know I've done some things to one to protect that in the sense of I don't check email before I go to bed like I go Home I shut off That's right And then I get up in the morning and I start early and I but then my brain starts [00:28:00] going and then I start But, you know, sometimes there's things that happen at the end of the day at work and I go home and it's hanging on, right?
John Conrad: Yeah, it's hanging on. It's just like because I didn't get a chance to do anything about it Yeah, I wake up and it just rolls and rolls and rolls and it yeah causes stress and anxiety and it's not good horrible It is it's a horrible. It's a horrible horrible feeling right? And I think the minute I go to work and I'm like, okay Whether it's an email, whether it's a note, whether it's a research, whether it's just that one action, I feel that it just dissipates, right?
John Conrad: Because I've initiated something. And I think where, where for me is, I'm less concerned about resolution. I think where people go, they want it resolved. They want it clear. To me, it's about movement toward mutual understanding. Or just movement in just movement, right? Like, I think momentum is an understated thing in our organizations.
John Conrad: Yeah, I agree. Like sometimes you just need to get started. And
Claire: not even, yeah, just that, [00:29:00] that, that first thing will,
John Conrad: yeah. And there's all kinds of behavioral psychology out there around, you know, 5, 4, go, right? Like just this, It's, there's lots of theory and lots of science out there that supports that, you know, and for me, I, it wasn't because I read a book in science, it's just like, Oh, why do I feel better today than I did yesterday?
John Conrad: Right? And so I've, I've really got into asking myself those questions, like, how am I feeling? And I'm not, I'm not the most empathetic person. Like I'm, I would say I'm compassionate, but I'm always not good at feeling what other people feel. It's not a natural state for me, and I'm not always good at interpreting my feelings and trying to attribute where their sources are.
John Conrad: But I have found, you know, probably since I've had kids,~ um,~ you know, having to be more like, okay, you know, cause I can be pretty direct and blunt and just like, yeah, like whatever. Right. I can relate. You know, my, my, my kid will be sick and I'll be like, whatever, you're sick. Like, you [00:30:00] know, Right. And, and, and they're looking at me like, John, just give me a hug.
John Conrad: Right. Go to work. Right. Like whatever you're saying, blow your nose. Right. So, so, but it's, but it's caused me stress because I'm afterwards, I'm feeling guilty and I'm feeling bad. Like I did. So then I'm trying to go, why am I feeling off? Like why? And so for me, again, the art of questioning myself. Without an expectation of an answer or resolution makes me feel better.
John Conrad: I
Claire: love that. And it's so true because that first step, I find the anxiety can increase and increase until you take that first step. And we all have those things, like maybe a bill that we keep putting off or, you know, even if you can't pay the bill, I've been in situations, Oh my gosh, starting a business.
Claire: It was just calling up the lender where I'm being saying, listen, Just be transparent. Yeah, I just need to talk about it. ~Um, ~I think. That gap between the problem and the first step is where the most damage [00:31:00] happens. ~Um, ~and I say damages and
John Conrad: yeah, think about that when you think about that relationship, you just talked about it as saying, I owe a vendor money.
John Conrad: Think about it from the vendor's perspective. They just want to know. Right? They have all kinds of people that stiff them. That, that's part of the nature of being a supplier. Like someone at some point doesn't pay, but what drives them nuts and doesn't cause them to sleep is they don't know. Yeah. They, they, they want to find a solution.
John Conrad: Now you're going to find some that are just mean and fine. Doesn't change anything. You still owe the money. But someone's going to be like, right? Yes. At some point though, it's most suppliers are going to be like, yeah, we've been there. Like, and they'll thank you for telling because they're now making assumptions of why you're not doing something.
John Conrad: So you're making assumptions about why they're also making. So now we've just raised their anxiety. So this mindset of if I'm concerned about their success, what am I going to do? I agree. And these assumptions. I'm going to pick up the phone and I'm going to say. Sorry, here's what's [00:32:00] going on. Can we jump on a call and not, yeah, you can do it by email, but the idea of having this conversation.
John Conrad: There were just humans. We're just people and it's just work, right? There's so much more to life. And I think, you know, the, the joy for me and work is the people. Like, I love producing results and I love having great stories and those are all just examples of the work that we've done because we are good people to each other, right?
Claire: I, I, I agree. There was, we actually have, we have a guest coming on in a couple of weeks, Ryan Alford. And he said, you know, it's not B to B, it's not C to C, it's not B to C to F, he's like, it's H to H, it's human to human. And that resonates, you know, you're like, yeah, let's stop, like, why are we changing the conversation if we're, you know, B to C, like, it is, we're human, you're a human, let's rip the bandaid, fail fast, let's talk about it and move
John Conrad: forward.[00:33:00]
John Conrad: And, you know, I think part of that is, is. The other person, like, I think we start assuming that, again, going back to this, you know, my background, well, how I really, I think, got into leadership, to the level that I'm at, is because I was forced to deal with a lot of student conflict. Like I lived in student residences for 14 years.
John Conrad: Oh,
Claire: no, you didn't.
John Conrad: Yes, I
Claire: did. Okay, that's not on your LinkedIn profile.
John Conrad: 14 years living in student housing, right? And now I was managed. So most of that job was conflict ridden. That's all I was doing. Oh, my goodness. So, so when you, when you're living there, especially as an adult, it's different when I was 20.
John Conrad: Yeah. Living in residence. But what, you know, I was 30 or older living in residence with 17 year olds. And, and I'm the one doing the discipline. So I had to see these people in discipline meetings, then I had to see them in the cafeteria. If I could not come up with a way to, to resolve that, like that would have been miserable for everybody.
John Conrad: Right? So for [00:34:00] me, it really became down to this thing about, well, what's the goal is resolute conflict is always future focused. But we spend so much time wanting to say, well, it's, it's whose fault is it? Yes. I'm not saying don't look at the fault, but we spend so much time wanting to assign blame because then it, then it makes me, we think it makes me feel better.
John Conrad: The blame doesn't make anybody feel better. We just, and then, but it's like, yeah, what, how, okay. What are we doing forward? What are we doing forward? You know, and I remember dealing with students and they'd say, well, I'm worried about how this. You know, they would say they own the problem. I'm worried about how this will go going forward.
John Conrad: And I said, I will judge you on your next behavior. Right? So I think I've carried that into business and saying, I'm not perfect. No one's perfect. We all make mistakes. We all screw up. And maybe I'm too naive and people go, well, what happens if they take advantage of you? Yeah. I've had people take advantage of me.
John Conrad: Absolutely. But you know what? It's not about them. So, so why am I going to change my outlook on life? Because someone takes advantage of me. [00:35:00] I've had, I've had people take credit for my work. I've had people get promoted because of, of work that I've been part of. Yeah. It doesn't bother me, but I've gotten to the point of like, I don't care.
John Conrad: Right. Like I care about did the people who know me. Are they like, are they the people that matter to me? Do I matter to them? Yeah. Right. And, and, you know, maybe it's just my upbringing, you know, forgiveness is really important for me. Redemption is really important for me. ~Um, ~all those things are really important to me.
John Conrad: Yeah. ~Um, ~so yeah. You know, yeah. I don't like getting taken advantage of. Do I get mad? Yeah. Do I confront it? Most times I confront it. Do I care? Are you awesome?
Claire: Yep.
John Conrad: Wow. You know, but I, I think, you know, again, I think part of the lens of, you know, when you're a parent, you're going, well, you know, I always, my wife and I always joke, it's about, we're not raising children, we're raising adults, right?
John Conrad: So, so how do I want my kids to behave as they get adults, become adults? ~Um, ~and so it's [00:36:00] always been my lens is saying, okay, well, there's things that are good and there's things that are bad in life and, and, you know, but, you know, be respectful even if someone's not respectful to you. It's about how you feel about yourself, not how others.
John Conrad: Treat you sometimes and maybe that's naive and maybe, you know, because whatever, I don't know. It's just and maybe it's a rationalization, but I have found in the work I do Treating people well has generated more work. My team has more work than we know what to do with and we don't sell We don't put ads out.
John Conrad: We we people call us they want to work with Yeah. So, so, you know, I, I, at the end of the day, you know, small business owners may have a thing they're selling, but the other day that people just want to work with you if you're a good person and maybe it's not the thing you're selling, maybe you have to sell something else.
John Conrad: But if you're a good person and you treat people well and you're willing to have difficult conversations and you care about the future, I think good things will come. Maybe not on the speed you want them though, as you, you're a living example of that, Claire. [00:37:00]
Claire: Right. Well, you know, it's funny,~ um,~ I, I was listening to a podcast and, and someone was saying, you know, Oh, you know, you're so lucky, like such great overnight success.
Claire: And, and she laughs and she says, Oh, you mean the 10 year of me sleeping in my car overnight success. That was. Canadian singer, Shania Twain. And so it's true. And it's funny that you bring this up and we'll wrap up here. But I was actually, of course, in the shower where all the great thoughts as cliche as it is, it really is true.
Claire: I was thinking, you know, and thinking about leadership and what that means for the world and the future for, you know, people building. Out great products and services in the world, and it's funny because I was thinking, you know, success if it came too fast and too quickly, you wouldn't have enough troubleshooting time.[00:38:00]
Claire: Like you didn't have enough time and I say troubleshooting, I work too much in technology, but you know, solving the problem, figuring out even the, even the fact of like what we're talking about when you're anxious about something, just movement. And, you know, if you got success and you listen to people become really successful.
Claire: Actually too fast. The demand is too high. They can't do it. And eventually they're back at square one trying to start again. Slow growth is even with an ADHD brain, I find slow growth in that. Respect, I think, is okay.
John Conrad: Yeah, so I have a friend, he's like, I hate the term serial entrepreneur. I'm like, why? He goes, Serial entrepreneurs, to me, have never succeeded.
John Conrad: They got to a point and then they got rid of it because it became, because they couldn't scale it, grow it. And I'm not saying everything needs to be scaled or grown, right? ~Um, ~but the relationship pieces become too complex, right? Like, the world we're in today, yeah, there's complexity [00:39:00] because of technology, there's complexity, but I still think the complexity of our world Is the human complexity that as humans, we're becoming more complex where there's, there's all these things affecting us as people and, and we're not spending enough time.
John Conrad: Well, who are you like, what's your story? Who's missing from the conversation, right? Like it's those it's that, that, and again, people go, well, that take perspective taking doesn't necessarily take a lot of time, right? You can just, sometimes you just need to sit back and go. What voice is missing, right?
John Conrad: Like, what, what perspective is missing? Who should I talk to? ~Um, ~I find, I find like, I chat with people all the time, right? Like, you know, my wife sometimes gets a little annoyed. I'll be in the grocery store and so again, I don't actively go out and look for relations, conversations, but there are times when I'm showing them a picture of their dog on their phone.
John Conrad: My, my, my favorite time at the school here is the first week of school, right? Because everybody's lost. Yeah. And so whenever he's lost, I get to help him, right? We have a map outside my office and [00:40:00] I hear the point on the map and I'm like, Oh, I got free time. You're the Walmart greeter. I am. I just say, Oh, what are you looking for?
John Conrad: And then I ask questions, right? So being curious about someone,~ um,~ being comfortable with the uncomfortable and all those things. But I think that, you know, I have this deep seated fear that no one will show up to my funeral. Right. Well, I'm like, I'll be
Claire: there. I'll make sure I'll be there. Okay. But
John Conrad: it's, you know, the impact I make at the end of my life is the relationships, right?
John Conrad: Not the things I created. It's the people, the people, people in my life will carry my legacy on, not the things I made. Right. And so I'm really driven by legacy. And to me, legacy is people,~ um,~ and people as leadership. If you have a desire, be curious about people, leadership will come out of that. It's, it's, you know, I don't, you don't have to be my type of leader.
John Conrad: You don't have to be your type of leader, just be you and talk to someone. If you're introverted, we'll find one person to talk to. You don't need to talk to a hundred, right? [00:41:00] Like you can still lead, you can still make those around you successful. So if leadership is an uncomfortable word for you, go, what can I do to make someone else successful?
Claire: Yeah. And that's what leadership is. And yeah, well, it's funny you said this because five years ago I wrote my obituary. That was an exercise. And then I met my husband and I made him do it because I said, you know, what's the next 50 years? Let's, let's jump there and then let's work backwards.
John Conrad: I'm assuming his,~ uh,~ his date is yours is longer than his, right?
John Conrad: That's
Claire: why it's the Twitter versus blogging, right? He's got the, he's got the tweet. I got the
John Conrad: blog. There you go. You need both of those in your life, right?
Claire: I couldn't agree more. Dr. John Conrad, you are a gem. Thanks. The world needs more of these conversations. We need your voice out there more. I am excited for the world to hear this episode.
Claire: ~Um, ~it's given me a lot of. [00:42:00] Thinking to do and, and how we can all be leaders in this next generation. It's so important. ~Uh, ~you know, as much as I love AI and marketing,~ um,~ who are the leaders in the space that are moving it next? So thank you. You're
John Conrad: welcome. My pleasure. Anytime.
